Triano's defence
Old 12-13-2009, 03:35 PM   #1 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,917
Representing:
Default Triano's defence

Although it's still fairly early in the season, I believe the time has come to look closely at what Triano wants this team to do on the defensive end of the floor. And it's not a well-kept secret either - he's been preaching "pack the paint and contain the penetration" since last season, after all. What it amounts to, in my books, is a rather simple, but unacceptable long-term conclusion - the Raptors can only be successful defensively against the teams that shoot wide-open threes poorly, overall or on a given night.

The game tonight vs. Houston was another case in point. True, both Scola and Landry were very productive, despite us supposedly having a superior front-court players, but Houston's wings and PGs didn't do much at all this game. Had they been hitting those open looks from the outside like they were during the pre-season meeting between these two teams, I don't think the Raps would've won today.

I believe that in today's NBA, Triano defensive philosophy is simply wrong and won't work more often than it would. Thoughts?
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 03:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,353
Representing:
Default

It's a philosophy that almost every NBA uses though Mike.

The difference today was that our players actually rotated and contested a lot of those looks.

If a team is bound and determined to shoot 25-30 3s/gm there's not much that you can do to stop it. You live with that though from most teams because it's a low % shot.

If we played like we played today do you honestly think that we'd be under .500 right now?

Regardles... I thought that Triano coached a brilliant game today and I challenge someone to show me otherwise.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 03:45 PM   #3 (permalink)
mooing

Senior Member
 
babyface's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,102
Representing:
Default

Agreed it's horrible ! This is why the Raps are so erratic. Even in the interview Triano said they're erratic. If we're up against teams that can shoot 3s we're in big trouble.
babyface is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 03:53 PM   #4 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,917
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
It's a philosophy that almost every NBA uses though Mike.

The difference today was that our players actually rotated and contested a lot of those looks.

If a team is bound and determined to shoot 25-30 3s/gm there's not much that you can do to stop it. You live with that though from most teams because it's a low % shot.
I have counted at least 6 wide-open three-point shots that Brooks, Battier, Anderson and Ariza have missed. Usually teams make those against us, not only gaining more points, but also deflating Raps' defensive morale.
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 03:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
landry fields forever

Administrator

 
Acie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 21,599
Representing:
Default

Although I don't like it, I think his plan could be moderately successful if he had the right guys or was willing to adjust based on the opponent. The wing players on the roster lack the defensive awareness or are just too slow to recover somewhat to at least get a hand up in the face of shooters before they've released the ball. The only guy that is quick enough, athletic enough and long enough is Weems, but he's only one guy and as it currently stands, he's certainly not a guy you want to rely on too heavily. Actually, Johnson isn't too bad at getting out on shooters and getting a hand up as well.
Acie is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 04:00 PM   #6 (permalink)
We going to the 'ship!

Senior Member

 
Ball Don't Lie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,707
Representing:
Default

The problem is athleticism and lack of trust. If theres a drive and kick, and swing around the perimeter, the defender running out at the potential shooter doesnt trust his teammates behind him if he closes out hard and takes the shooter off the shot and forces him to dribble it to the hole.

The good teams know how to close out and re funnel the player into the next rotating man and it continues until theres a turnover or contested shot.

Just look at how ATL defended Boshs postups. They doubled with the nearest perimeter player(usually Bibby), and then the next ATL defender closest to the ball was defending both Turk and Bargs, he was in the middle, waiting for the pass to get thrown, once it got thrown to Turk, he rotated, cut off the shot, Turk swung it, Andrea swung it after the next defender rotated, and then one of their bigs, Horford or Smith, got to the corner guy and took away the shot. Thats why you saw Jack at the top of the key driving to the hole so much because there was no easy shot off the kick.

Thats what athleticism, trust, and chemistry gets you. The Lakers and Celtics do the exact same thing, but with less doubling and switching like the Hawks, but with more activity and zoning off the side the ball is on forcing the ballhandler either into a double team or forcing the pass out.

We dont have enough quick athletic guys especially in the starting 5 to make this work. We have the length just not the quickness or team cheistry IMO. Its too bad we didnt surround Bosh with more athletic versatile guys, especially when it comes to defence.

Last edited by Ball Don't Lie; 12-13-2009 at 04:02 PM.
Ball Don't Lie is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 04:12 PM   #7 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,296
Representing:
Default

I don't think this plan is due to choice, more like necessity. With Calderon in the front, and Bosh and Bargnani unable to provide lane intimidation, unless you crowd the pain a little, we would get destroyed in the paint. And we'd allow even more wide 3pt shots off penetration ...

And in my opinion, we are not that unathletic, Bargnani is quicker than most centers, and so is Bosh among PFs. When Jack is starting, he's not very quick, but he's not that bad. Derozan is quick and turkoglu is the only one who really gives up quickness in most nights.

The main problem I think it's the inability to cover both penetration at the 1/2/3 spots, (and P&R defense). Almost any team in the league can take any of our wing and guard players and beat them one on one. It's one thing to double a big man, but to contain a player who beat his man off the perimeter is almost impossible without leaving somebody wide open (and only one assist away).

And we are not a hard-nosed team to start - there's no player in the starting 5 who is willing to sacrifice offense energy for defensive energy. In fact, in our whole roster only jack and evans are blue-collar players, and one is injured right now.
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 06:39 PM   #8 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,680
Representing:
Default

The problem so far has not just been the open threes, but easy shots from all over the floor, and when they've succeeded, the missed shots often come from rather disjointed plays, and the paint does get closed off well.

I would say that Bosh has been looked at as a guy they now want to stay at home around the basket more, and to allow him to be more available to help, and alter a lot more shots, while other guys collapse in there as well, rather than leak out too early. And there should not be any collapsing en mass until the ballhandler fully commits to going to the basket. If guys get pulled off guarding the perimeter too easy, then no it can't work. But that's not the idea. The idea is to stop the ball, and then disrupt the ballhandler's ability to make a play in rhythm from there, and if the ball does get kicked back out to the perimeter before they can stop the ball on the floor, then defenders have to run out to shooters with the pass, not after the pass.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 10:59 AM   #9 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,917
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by •LX• View Post
If guys get pulled off guarding the perimeter too easy, then no it can't work. But that's not the idea. The idea is to stop the ball, and then disrupt the ballhandler's ability to make a play in rhythm from there, and if the ball does get kicked back out to the perimeter before they can stop the ball on the floor, then defenders have to run out to shooters with the pass, not after the pass.
But they do leave their man way too easily and that is the problem. Whether by design or because their instincts are that wrong, our perimeter defenders leave shooters open beyond the arc on a regular basis while also not really collapsing or helping - rather, they appear to be stuck/drifting in a no-man's land between the paint and their primary cover. And they do it to people like Ray Allen!

IMHO, there are players in this league who must never be left alone, no matter what's going on with the ball penetration. If you are guarding people like Allen, Kapono, Arenas or Redick, you are not helping period, you are staying glued to your man!
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 02:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,680
Representing:
Default

No real argument there, but my complaints go beyond just the raptors. I see the whole league becoming very much a game of shooting the three. There's a reason that Triano wants 25 three pointers chucked up - teams are going to give them to you. And a lot of those guys you mentioned Mike, aside from Kapono for certain, are going to still take their shots, and make a good bunch of them, when contested, on any given night.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 03:59 PM   #11 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,917
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by •LX• View Post
No real argument there, but my complaints go beyond just the raptors. I see the whole league becoming very much a game of shooting the three. There's a reason that Triano wants 25 three pointers chucked up - teams are going to give them to you. And a lot of those guys you mentioned Mike, aside from Kapono for certain, are going to still take their shots, and make a good bunch of them, when contested, on any given night.
Sure, but I will feel better if they make a contested shot - it means that the Raps did all they could.

As for shooting a lot of threes - it's a weapon designed to unclog the paint for PGs to penetrate and for bigs to operate in. Our team's offence is predicated on making an open three pointer at least 80% of the time - that's why they've stalled offensively lately, in a cruelly ironic happenstance.
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 04:56 PM   #12 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,680
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
Sure, but I will feel better if they make a contested shot - it means that the Raps did all they could.

As for shooting a lot of threes - it's a weapon designed to unclog the paint for PGs to penetrate and for bigs to operate in. Our team's offence is predicated on making an open three pointer at least 80% of the time - that's why they've stalled offensively lately, in a cruelly ironic happenstance.
Aagain - I don't disagree, but it usually doesn't unclog the paint. The NBA game has just become a sort of unimaginative mess. Clogging the paint and allowing the three is just the easiest way to try to ugly a game up defensively.

I think I love the Rockets about as much as any team. Ariza aside I guess. They play an honest game both ways, with so much intelligence to go with the grit.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 11:00 AM   #13 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,917
Representing:
Default

Last night - another case in point, albeit against a very good overall team.
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 11:03 AM   #14 (permalink)
a Raptors fan

Free DeMar DeRozan

 
zachus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,833
Representing:
Default

Orlando is just a much better team than us in every way. When Orlando gets rolling, getting a hand up on their shooters isn't enough. They hit a lot of tough shots last night, shots where I was happy with the contest. Rashard Lewis is very good at sticking with a hand in his face.
zachus is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 11:16 AM   #15 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,917
Representing:
Default

Zachus, I'd agree with Orlando's assessment. They indeed are a very, very good team. Keeping in mind that the Raps have already played them 3 times and Atlanta (another great team) twice, I expect that things will start looking relatively better for the Raps soon.

Unfortunately, if no major injuries occur, the top 4 in the East look locked between Orlando, Atlanta, Cleveland and Boston, leaving Raps with no chances of advancing past the first round even if they manage to get into the playoffs. Kinda makes one wonder if it's even worth struggling for.

Yeah, yeah, I know, extra revenues, prestige and experience, but it's kind of depressing anyway, 'cause the results are way too predictable this season.
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Doug Smith: A method to Triano's madness Acie Toronto Raptors 13 01-28-2010 06:25 PM
Chisholm: Calderon is Triano's biggest test jeffb Toronto Raptors 9 01-06-2010 07:05 PM
Bleacher Report: Jay Triano's Coaching Costs Raptors A Win Thug Toronto Raptors 43 11-17-2009 12:48 PM
Triano's Future To Be Decided Soon Dr. J. Naismith Toronto Raptors 11 04-28-2009 10:29 AM
Triano's Got His Hands Full Once ..... Dr. J. Naismith Toronto Raptors 38 01-06-2009 03:35 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24