Treading Our way to the Trade Deadline. Part 2 - Page 6

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View Poll Results: Do you agree with Masai's patience on making trades?
Yes, We need to look for the best trade possible even if it puts us in No mans land 33 58.93%
NO, he is taking way too long to assess the situation, he needs to blow this up now! 10 17.86%
NO! It is obvious we should make trades ASAP to give us a push for the Playoffs! 2 3.57%
I have exams/work to do and don't give a crap. Go with the Flow 11 19.64%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-26-2013, 02:37 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Yeah, drafting high is for scrubs, real GMs treadmill. Just let Demar chuck to his heart's content, and ignore the financial aspects of building a team. We'll sign major FAs because we came in 7th place with a record worse than .500, all the free agents love that. We'll sign them even though this team will have no cap room if we resign any of the players who are oh so valuable but are free agents this season such as Vasquez, Lowry, Patterson. The CBA doesn't affect us because WINNING CULTURE. We'll also destroy every other GM in every trade and get our star there, even though we have no assets worth a star. Hurray for blind optimism!!!
Hurray for cynical pessimism!!
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Old 12-26-2013, 02:55 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Not hinting or anything but sometime I feel the majority of the posters here are teenagers who think that building and running a team it's like playing NBA 2K14 lol
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Old 12-26-2013, 02:58 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Yeah, drafting high is for scrubs, real GMs treadmill. Just let Demar chuck to his heart's content, and ignore the financial aspects of building a team. We'll sign major FAs because we came in 7th place with a record worse than .500, all the free agents love that. We'll sign them even though this team will have no cap room if we resign any of the players who are oh so valuable but are free agents this season such as Vasquez, Lowry, Patterson. The CBA doesn't affect us because WINNING CULTURE. We'll also destroy every other GM in every trade and get our star there, even though we have no assets worth a star. Hurray for blind optimism!!!
Ok, so let's see for a second, and we will go with short replies as this whole thing getting very tiring and tedious. Who would you trade before the deadline and what are you looking for in return?
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:04 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Not hinting or anything but sometime I feel the majority of the posters here are teenagers who think that building and running a team it's like playing NBA 2K14 lol
I traded Terrence Ross and Landry Fields for the #1 pick which equalled Andrew Wiggins in 2K MyGM. I must be able to do that in real life.
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:34 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Old 12-26-2013, 04:58 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Ok, so let's see for a second, and we will go with short replies as this whole thing getting very tiring and tedious. Who would you trade before the deadline and what are you looking for in return?
If I'm the GM I trade Lowry as soon as possible to the desperate Knicks. I think we could pry away their next pick and Felton. If not, take either one of Shump or Hardaway, or both. Then see how the team plays. If we take the turn for the worse that I predict will happen without Lowry, then leave the team be unless
presented with a great offer. If the team's not bad enough, then trade Amir next, to a team in exchange for expirings and prospects/picks. By that point the team should be sufficiently bad.

Now I'm curious as to how you believe we can improve this team, after making the playoffs. Like specific players we should be targeting?
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Old 12-26-2013, 07:10 PM   #107 (permalink)
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If I were the GM I would try and trade Lowry, if he isn't part of the future. I doubt the Knicks would give up a 1st round + Hardaway Jr + Shump + Felton for a rental, heck I don't even know if it could work with the salaries. Anyhow I will try to find a deal that will bring back value, if possible, a point guard to back up GV. Let's not underestimate him, he was very solid last year with NOP and needs time to adapt to our system and coach. I will try to make some other moves that can bring us more serviceable pieces for a playoff push while I develops JV and Ross. If we can finish 4th-6th the value and the experience will be huge, not to mention to the fan base. Are we gonna be a contender? No, but if we were to tank this season, most likely the next 2-3 seasons will be all for again organic growth. At this rate, DD, Amir and JV will be sick and tired of losing. Players don't wanna lose or tank, simple as that. Like I said before, the time to tank was after Bosh left, at this point you have too many good pieces to tank.

Last edited by Tommy C; 12-26-2013 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 12-26-2013, 08:29 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Calgary Jazz
Jerry Sloan said once that single playoff series is more valuable for player development then regular season . I think Sloan knows a thing or two.
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:05 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Calgary Jazz
Jerry Sloan said once that single playoff series is more valuable for player development then regular season . I think Sloan knows a thing or two.
I get that, but what's the point in developing a core that will never succeed in the playoffs?
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:12 PM   #110 (permalink)
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If I were the GM I would try and trade Lowry, if he isn't part of the future. I doubt the Knicks would give up a 1st round + Hardaway Jr + Shump + Felton for a rental, heck I don't even know if it could work with the salaries. Anyhow I will try to find a deal that will bring back value, if possible, a point guard to back up GV. Let's not underestimate him, he was very solid last year with NOP and needs time to adapt to our system and coach. I will try to make some other moves that can bring us more serviceable pieces for a playoff push while I develops JV and Ross. If we can finish 4th-6th the value and the experience will be huge, not to mention to the fan base. Are we gonna be a contender? No, but if we were to tank this season, most likely the next 2-3 seasons will be all for again organic growth. At this rate, DD, Amir and JV will be sick and tired of losing. Players don't wanna lose or tank, simple as that. Like I said before, the time to tank was after Bosh left, at this point you have too many good pieces to tank.
Let's simplify this. I think you and I can both agree that in order to win a championship we need a franchise player (yes I'm aware of the 04 Pistons). I suggest we get this franchise player through the draft, and you suggest other methods. I would like to know who in specific we should target and how we should get them.

And btw my proposal was Felton and NYK first OR Shumpert/Hardaway for Lowry, not all 3 of Shumpert, Hardaway, and the pick

Last edited by KoolAid; 12-26-2013 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:16 PM   #111 (permalink)
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In this league, you don't win it all without a strong team. It hasn't happened ever. It takes 9 or 10 that can find a way to win in different situations, not 1 or 2 elite talents that try to carry the rest. In the end it's not so much about talent, but rather integrating all the parts. Throwing good parts away for potential or cap space is not a formula for success. It's just a formula that any pretend gm can apply.
*applause*

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All assets - dude, nobody is suggesting to strip a team of all assets. No GM will or has done that either.
I didn't think so. That's what it would probably take though for us to be a bottom 5 team.

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If I'm the GM I trade Lowry as soon as possible to the desperate Knicks. I think we could pry away their next pick and Felton. If not, take either one of Shump or Hardaway, or both. Then see how the team plays. If we take the turn for the worse that I predict will happen without Lowry, then leave the team be unless
presented with a great offer. If the team's not bad enough, then trade Amir next, to a team in exchange for expirings and prospects/picks. By that point the team should be sufficiently bad.
1. So what do you do if NYK doesn't want to give up all of that for Lowry.... which seems to be true? What now?

2. What happens if you deal Lowry and Amir and the team STILL plays well? What do you do next? Who do you deal?
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:28 PM   #112 (permalink)
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I didn't think so. That's what it would probably take though for us to be a bottom 5 team.
Do you realize Milwaukee has a better core than us and is bottom 3?

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1. So what do you do if NYK doesn't want to give up all of that for Lowry.... which seems to be true? What now?

2. What happens if you deal Lowry and Amir and the team STILL plays well? What do you do next? Who do you deal?
1. Seems to me that they'd be willing to give up either their pick or those two and Masai is just playing hard ball to extract maximum assets. He could do that but he's setting the tank back with every meaningless win. If that's not the case I'm sure many other teams would accept a good PG with an expiring contract.

2. A very unlikely scenario, but if that's the case you make some lateral moves and fuck up the chemistry while maintaining assets.

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Old 12-26-2013, 09:28 PM   #113 (permalink)
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*applause*



I didn't think so. That's what it would probably take though for us to be a bottom 5 team.



1. So what do you do if NYK doesn't want to give up all of that for Lowry.... which seems to be true? What now?


2. What happens if you deal Lowry and Amir and the team STILL plays well? What do you do next?
Pacers.


Lolled a bit.
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:04 PM   #114 (permalink)
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*applause*



I didn't think so. That's what it would probably take though for us to be a bottom 5 team.



1. So what do you do if NYK doesn't want to give up all of that for Lowry.... which seems to be true? What now?

2. What happens if you deal Lowry and Amir and the team STILL plays well? What do you do next? Who do you deal?
Sorry but is that a joke? Losing your two best players and having inferior players take up their minutes. Yes - the team will still play "well".
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:32 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Let's simplify this. I think you and I can both agree that in order to win a championship we need a franchise player (yes I'm aware of the 04 Pistons). I suggest we get this franchise player through the draft, and you suggest other methods. I would like to know who in specific we should target and how we should get them.

And btw my proposal was Felton and NYK first OR Shumpert/Hardaway for Lowry, not all 3 of Shumpert, Hardaway, and the pick
I do agree that we need a franchise player, but I am also aware of the fact that even drafting a top 5 this coming draft won't guarantee us one. Imo MU will try to build a team here like he assembled in Denver. No superstars but some really good players. If people will give JV some time to develop and coach will give Ross the opportunity to play and overcome the barriers of a sophomore we can be pretty decent. I agree with you that having a franchise player via draft is ideal, but this not the case the majority of the times.
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Old 12-27-2013, 12:06 AM   #116 (permalink)
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I can understand losing Lowry, since we have no guarantee on him anyway (re-sign please, or swing him to anyone but the Knicks who have zero valuables).

But to trade away Lowry, DD and Amir in hopes of being bad enough to pick top 2 or 3, and then hope that player reaches his potential whilst surrounded by complete scrubs, and hope he doesn't get tired of shitty Toronto and leave?

That's a lot of hoping - and I'm skeptical.

I say, let's keep building on the talent we have, and develop a winning culture. A culture that might start to attract some names. Ujiri did it in Denver, he can do it here.

Last edited by Owned; 12-27-2013 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 12-27-2013, 12:22 AM   #117 (permalink)
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I can understand losing Lowry, since we have no guarantee on him anyway (re-sign please, or swing him to anyone but the Knicks who have zero valuables).

But to trade away Lowry, DD and Amir in hopes of being bad enough to pick top 2 or 3, and then have that player reach his potential whilst surrounded by complete scrubs, and hope he doesn't get tired of shitty Toronto and leave?

That's a lot of hoping - and I'm skeptical.

I say, let's keep building on the talent we have, and develop a winning culture. A culture that might start to attract some names. Ujiri did it in Denver, he can do it here.
+1 thank you! You summed it up perfectly.
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Old 12-27-2013, 01:05 AM   #118 (permalink)
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I can understand losing Lowry, since we have no guarantee on him anyway (re-sign please, or swing him to anyone but the Knicks who have zero valuables).

But to trade away Lowry, DD and Amir in hopes of being bad enough to pick top 2 or 3, and then have that player reach his potential whilst surrounded by complete scrubs, and hope he doesn't get tired of shitty Toronto and leave?

That's a lot of hoping - and I'm skeptical.

I say, let's keep building on the talent we have, and develop a winning culture. A culture that might start to attract some names. Ujiri did it in Denver, he can do it here.
1. You would not have to trade all three of those guys for the team to suck. Especially not DeMar.

2. That player would be stuck here for 7 years minimum. If Masai is a good GM he should be capable to build around him during that time.

3. Lowry needs to be traded. Masai will not let him go for nothing and if he resigns him this team loses all financial flexibility.

You guys really overestimate how much a season of tanking hurts a team. If you suck for one year you're not always going to be stuck at the bottom forever.

Masai built a team in Denver that has not had playoff success and will likely not have any soon. Luckily for us, he can look at what happened there and learn, and build this team better.
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Old 12-27-2013, 09:31 AM   #119 (permalink)
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1. You would not have to trade all three of those guys for the team to suck. Especially not DeMar.

2. That player would be stuck here for 7 years minimum. If Masai is a good GM he should be capable to build around him during that time.

3. Lowry needs to be traded. Masai will not let him go for nothing and if he resigns him this team loses all financial flexibility.

You guys really overestimate how much a season of tanking hurts a team. If you suck for one year you're not always going to be stuck at the bottom forever.

Masai built a team in Denver that has not had playoff success and will likely not have any soon. Luckily for us, he can look at what happened there and learn, and build this team better.
Even gutting the team of 2 of 3 of those players will leave us in the deadzone, I think. We cannot afford to lose players who want to play here, it's a rare enough commodity as it is. That's why I think keeping Amir and Demar is crucial. Lowry, if we have to let him go, then we have to, which would be unfortunate.

I'm not sure about that 7 years minimum thing, I think you're being misleading with that.

As for the tanking issue; I think fans are wary of the perpetual tankers (Cleveland, Washington) and since we're better right now than we've been for a while, you should understand that people aren't going to be willing to give up one in the hand for two in the bush.

Also, I think you need to be a little more realistic. We are where we are right now, and we are who we are. We're a shit-town basketball team with no success ever. To get as good as Denver last year (even without championship success) is a big step up from being the laughing stock of the league.

I just want to watch a competent basketball team at this point. It's sad, but it's true. I believe in Masai.
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Old 12-27-2013, 10:50 AM   #120 (permalink)
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Even gutting the team of 2 of 3 of those players will leave us in the deadzone, I think. We cannot afford to lose players who want to play here, it's a rare enough commodity as it is. That's why I think keeping Amir and Demar is crucial. Lowry, if we have to let him go, then we have to, which would be unfortunate.
Players will want to play here if they get paid and they see a team that has potential to go far in the playoffs either now or in the future.

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I'm not sure about that 7 years minimum thing, I think you're being misleading with that.
The absolute minimum which almost never happens is that a player plays out his rookie scale contract for 4 years, then accepts his qualifying offer that is worth much less money and is only one year long which allows him to become a UFA after a year.If a player does this he is risking injury and major loss of money in the present and long term. Most likely scenario, especially if it's a franchise player, is he plays the 4 years for the rookie scale contract, then gets a five year extension with an early termination option, which can be at earliest 3 years into the contract. So that's 7 years. So 5 years is the absolute minimum that is possible, while 7+ is much much more likely.
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As for the tanking issue; I think fans are wary of the perpetual tankers (Cleveland, Washington) and since we're better right now than we've been for a while, you should understand that people aren't going to be willing to give up one in the hand for two in the bush.

Also, I think you need to be a little more realistic. We are where we are right now, and we are who we are. We're a shit-town basketball team with no success ever. To get as good as Denver last year (even without championship success) is a big step up from being the laughing stock of the league.

I just want to watch a competent basketball team at this point. It's sad, but it's true. I believe in Masai.
You believe in Masai, but you don't believe that he will prevent this team from being a bottom feeder? I think that's one of the big reasons as to why I support tanking so much. Even if it fails Masai should be able to rebuild a good team. We have seen how quickly a team can rise from being a laughing stock to a great team in the Clippers. They were able to extend CP3's contract despite their history of sucking. Like I said before, players care about if the team can be great in the future and if they get paid.

I understand people don't want to give up the success this team has but you guys need to understand it won't last, both this season and in the long run. If you really think this team is going to be a .700 team (roughly their win percentage since the trade) for the rest of the year, you're nuts. And in the long term, is this squad really worth going over the cap for? Because if that happens you're preventing this team from making the signings from the players who you assume will be more likely to want to play here due to the "winning culture", which defeats the whole purpose of going for the playoffs.

I get wanting to watch good basketball, I'm just willing to sacrifice an ok team now for a chance at a great team in the future.
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