Treading Our way to the Trade Deadline. Part 2 - Page 5

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View Poll Results: Do you agree with Masai's patience on making trades?
Yes, We need to look for the best trade possible even if it puts us in No mans land 33 58.93%
NO, he is taking way too long to assess the situation, he needs to blow this up now! 10 17.86%
NO! It is obvious we should make trades ASAP to give us a push for the Playoffs! 2 3.57%
I have exams/work to do and don't give a crap. Go with the Flow 11 19.64%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-25-2013, 10:52 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Old 12-25-2013, 11:11 PM   #82 (permalink)
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in this league, you don't win without elite players. Just because it happened once, doesn't make it any less so. Every season, the top 4-5 teams are all anchored by 1-2 top 10 players. Always was, always will be. Anybody who questions that is, in my opinion, fooling themselves.

And, while it's possible to get that elite player through late lottery or free agency, chances are you will not. And it's not even a factor of your GM being great, because, for the most part, it's out of his hands. It's so rare for elite players to slip through the cracks and if there are no elite players where you draft, then you're out of luck. Not to mention that you have to miss the playoffs in order to have even that slight chance - can't recall anybody really good drafted outside lottery in recent memory. You can get very good players like bledsoe or rondo, but not top 10 talents.

So, if we don't tank this year, it's nearly certain that we will never get that type of talent. We'll just have to settle for East's version of Denver, a good team who wins 50 games and has a shot to win a playoff round every season. Which would make it the best Raptor team ever of course. And, in 6-7 years, we'll get another chance to rebuild and maybe we'll do it properly then.
Miami won the last two championships. Their best player was acquired through free agency.

Dirk Nowitzi was in his 13th season.

Dirk Nowitzki was drafted 9th. After Vince.. And Raef Lafrentz. And Tractor Taylor.

Kobe was drafted 13th.

We have a 3rd overall pick. An 8th overall pick. And a 9th overall pick on our roster.

Chicken....Egg...?

Their is an actual process of being excellent. You need to compete regularly and beat people. You can't draft god. You can draft the king, but if you don't have the coaches and the system that can convince him that a 250 pound 6'8 frame should be posting up instead of shooting three pointers, you're not going to win shit.

The fucking Deputy commish is even considering making changes because of the nonsense internet bullshit perpetuated by fans such as yourself;

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"I don't think it works, because culture is critical. And I don't think you can build a winning tradition with an undercurrent that 'it's better to be bad.' I've never seen it be successful. It makes me nervous that it has to be asked, so I recognize it's something the league has to focus on."
You tankers are wiggidy wack - all of you don't know shit. you're blind...ignorant to the entire process that has defined past champions; How can you appreciate basketball? How can you appreciate the journey and adventure that makes a champion when you think it is as simple as losing and picking first?? In this age of useless advanced stats, there is no statistic that should be more important to the fan than the magical number, mathematical elimination. Embrace it and embrace this season.

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Old 12-25-2013, 11:59 PM   #83 (permalink)
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In this league, you don't win it all without a strong team. It hasn't happened ever. It takes 9 or 10 that can find a way to win in different situations, not 1 or 2 elite talents that try to carry the rest. In the end it's not so much about talent, but rather integrating all the parts. Throwing good parts away for potential or cap space is not a formula for success. It's just a formula that any pretend gm can apply.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:02 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Yes, that process that defined the past champions...you mean Miami signing two superstars, after a tanking season, who they recruited with the franchise player they got by tanking? Or maybe you mean the Lakers abusing the Grizzlies in a trade for Pau by giving up 0 assets. All that shows me is that elite talent rules in this league, and elite talent attracts other elites.

You treadmillers really think we're going to sign Lebron? You want to place all your faith in hoping that we can destroy a team in a trade and get a great player back in exchange for 2nd rounders? That's delusion at it's finest.

You treadmill guys don't know jack shit. You're blind, ignorant to the fact that this team, even if it marginally improves over the course of time via the process of internal growth, is not going to acquire a franchise player unless we blow it up. You don't win in this league without a franchise player, therefore our only option is to blow it up. How can you enjoy basketball, knowing that this team is going nowhere? How can you enjoy it, knowing it's destined to fail? In a time where so many people on this board are stuck in the present, we must look to the future. Embrace the tank.

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Old 12-26-2013, 12:13 AM   #85 (permalink)
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For arguments sake, let's say we make the playoffs, which seems to be a foregone conclusion with some of you despite the fact that it's far from guaranteed, what next? We don't make it without Lowry who has been either the best or 2nd best player on the team, so assuming we keep him past the deadline what do we do with that situation? Do you resign him and put this team back over the cap and truly forfeit any chance of improving in free agency? Do you let him go and lose an asset for nothing? Do you pray that some team with no cap space wants him bad and is willing to give something up for him in a sign and trade? If its either of the last two scenarios, what PG are we getting that is better than him? Are you really satisfied with the terrible defensive, no 3pt shooting backcourt of Demar and Vasquez? I don't understand how you guys can ignore all these issues, yet still go on about the risks of tanking.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:32 AM   #86 (permalink)
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We don't make the playoffs we draft Dirk Nowitzki with the 9th overall pick or Kobe Bryant with the 13th overall pick. We win the championship 8 years from now. You say we did it because we tanked...retrospectively...we're all happy.


We make the playoffs it's because we had in years prior the 3rd, 8th, and 9th round pick and we tanked nonetheless, and these guys became stars after we thought it was to late to become stars, and we make the playoffs again next year, and then the ECF the year next...or we fucking don't...but the two years beat tanking and it was fun.

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Old 12-26-2013, 12:53 AM   #87 (permalink)
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No D? The Raps are playing pretty good D especially after the Gay trade. DD isn't a pure 3 point shooter but Ross has the potential to be decent but he needs the opportunity and the PT to develop. We don't want to be a treadmill team, no doubt about it, but to trade all of your assets and hoping to replace them with superior counterparts isn't that easy. Believe it or not, it's not that easy to replace players such as Amir, DD, JV, Ross and Lowry. You don't just trade them away and hope to fetch better players via FA nor the draft, it just doesn't work this way.

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Old 12-26-2013, 01:09 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Yes, that process that defined the past champions...you mean Miami signing two superstars, after a tanking season, who they recruited with the franchise player they got by tanking? Or maybe you mean the Lakers abusing the Grizzlies in a trade for Pau by giving up 0 assets. All that shows me is that elite talent rules in this league, and elite talent attracts other elites.

You treadmillers really think we're going to sign Lebron? You want to place all your faith in hoping that we can destroy a team in a trade and get a great player back in exchange for 2nd rounders? That's delusion at it's finest.

You treadmill guys don't know jack shit. You're blind, ignorant to the fact that this team, even if it marginally improves over the course of time via the process of internal growth, is not going to acquire a franchise player unless we blow it up. You don't win in this league without a franchise player, therefore our only option is to blow it up. How can you enjoy basketball, knowing that this team is going nowhere? How can you enjoy it, knowing it's destined to fail? In a time where so many people on this board are stuck in the present, we must look to the future. Embrace the tank.
You do know shit. And you post it over and over and over again.

Treadmill. Teardown. Tank. Tank. Franchise player. Treadmill. That's great stuff right there.

Kool Aid is such an apt name for you. You are ready and willing to drink it up with a straw.

Show me the team that won a championship with a "franchise player" and a bunch of players that are unable to come together and find ways to win. How do you presume that one part of the equation is all that matters and everything else can be sacrificed for the chance to realize that part of the equation? And how do you ignore all the franchise players that fail to win year after year, let alone all the potential franchise players that enter the draft and amount to little?

Your only option is to blow it up? First of all, it is not your option nor mine. Secondly, any non-pretend gm that leads himself to believe that there is only one option of any kind at any point should be nothing more than a pretend gm.
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:15 AM   #89 (permalink)
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No D? The Raps are playing pretty good D especially after the Gay trade. DD isn't a pure 3 point shooter but Ross has the potential to be decent but he needs the opportunity and the PT to develop. We don't want to be a treadmill team, no doubt about it, but to trade all of your assets and hoping to replace them with superior counterparts isn't that easy. Believe it or not, it's not that easy to replace players such as Amir, DD, JV, Ross and Lowry. You don't just trade them away and hope to fetch better players via FA nor the draft, it just doesn't work this way.
Firstly, The Raptors' defense will get worse when Vasquez takes the starting role. Secondly, I already know this is something we disagree on so I'll just save us both some posts: I don't think we need to trade all our assets in order to tank, while you do. That's something we will have to agree to disagree on because we can't really know for sure right now how the team will fare without Lowry.
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:31 AM   #90 (permalink)
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You do know shit. And you post it over and over and over again.

Treadmill. Teardown. Tank. Tank. Franchise player. Treadmill. That's great stuff right there.

Kool Aid is such an apt name for you. You are ready and willing to drink it up with a straw.

Show me the team that won a championship with a "franchise player" and a bunch of players that are unable to come together and find ways to win. How do you presume that one part of the equation is all that matters and everything else can be sacrificed for the chance to realize that part of the equation? And how do you ignore all the franchise players that fail to win year after year, let alone all the potential franchise players that enter the draft and amount to little?

Your only option is to blow it up? First of all, it is not your option nor mine. Secondly, any non-pretend gm that leads himself to believe that there is only one option of any kind at any point should be nothing more than a pretend gm.
I post it over and over again and will continue to do so until someone gives me reason to believe otherwise.

History shows that once you have those franchise players, so long as you are not cursed with bad management, it is much easier to build around that player. In order to build a team that can win you have to have the strengths and weaknesses of all your players covered. But in order to do that you need to know what weaknesses you will need to cover. MJ had guys like Paxson and Kerr to make up for his lackluster 3pt shooting, Lebron has shooters all around him too because it suits his play style. Fact is its much easier to get supporting guys than it is to get elite guys, when you are presented with a choice you always pick the elite guy first. What we're doing here is building a great supporting cast without knowing if it will fit the elite player we will need to take the next step.

Perhaps tanking isn't the only option, but it is by far the best one.
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:34 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Firstly, The Raptors' defense will get worse when Vasquez takes the starting role. Secondly, I already know this is something we disagree on so I'll just save us both some posts: I don't think we need to trade all our assets in order to tank, while you do. That's something we will have to agree to disagree on because we can't really know for sure right now how the team will fare without Lowry.
No, I think you are confused about that part, I am not on the trade-all-assets & tank bandwagon. All I am saying is that the pro tankers, and I am not saying you, want to trade Amir, DD, Ross and even JV, hoping we land Wiggins and another top 5 player and become a contender in 2015-2016. This is a wishful thinking and ain't gonna happen. We have some good pieces here moving forward. JV is only 21 and people already say he is a tier 2 center at best. These tankers should give him a break. He is only 21, has less than 2 season under his belt and developing well. I guess those guys wanted us to take Drummond instead... We have Ross who could be good 6th man or maybe a starter if he can improve and be consisten. We have Amir who is a young vet and some other pieces. Are we gonna win a ring with those guys? Absolutely not, but if MU is smart as we all hope he will get us better via trade and maybe will be able to get us top 5 pick somehow (which I doubt). If we tank hard this team won't be able to even fight for a playoff spot in the next 3 years not to mention that you are running into the risk of unhappy players such as DD and Amir that been here long enough and don't want to lose anymore, and as a result ask to be traded.

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Old 12-26-2013, 12:30 PM   #92 (permalink)
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all assets
All assets - dude, nobody is suggesting to strip a team of all assets. No GM will or has done that either.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:33 PM   #93 (permalink)
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For arguments sake, let's say we make the playoffs, which seems to be a foregone conclusion with some of you despite the fact that it's far from guaranteed, what next? We don't make it without Lowry who has been either the best or 2nd best player on the team, so assuming we keep him past the deadline what do we do with that situation? Do you resign him and put this team back over the cap and truly forfeit any chance of improving in free agency? Do you let him go and lose an asset for nothing? Do you pray that some team with no cap space wants him bad and is willing to give something up for him in a sign and trade? If its either of the last two scenarios, what PG are we getting that is better than him? Are you really satisfied with the terrible defensive, no 3pt shooting backcourt of Demar and Vasquez? I don't understand how you guys can ignore all these issues, yet still go on about the risks of tanking.
Not to mention GV himself has a QO and can become an RFA himself so even his future isn't guaranteed.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:34 PM   #94 (permalink)
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No D? The Raps are playing pretty good D especially after the Gay trade. DD isn't a pure 3 point shooter but Ross has the potential to be decent but he needs the opportunity and the PT to develop. We don't want to be a treadmill team, no doubt about it, but to trade all of your assets and hoping to replace them with superior counterparts isn't that easy. Believe it or not, it's not that easy to replace players such as Amir, DD, JV, Ross and Lowry. You don't just trade them away and hope to fetch better players via FA nor the draft, it just doesn't work this way.
No one is suggesting to trade all of the raps' assets. Hyperbole seems to occur a lot on here.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:59 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Miami won the last two championships. Their best player was acquired through free agency.

Dirk Nowitzi was in his 13th season.

Dirk Nowitzki was drafted 9th. After Vince.. And Raef Lafrentz. And Tractor Taylor.

Kobe was drafted 13th.
yes, thank you for confirming my point. The last time you recall an elite player drafted in late lottery was in the 90s. And we won't draft in late lottery, we'll draft outside the lottery. So looks like we're in agreement that we have no chance of getting a star this way.

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We have a 3rd overall pick. An 8th overall pick. And a 9th overall pick on our roster. Chicken....Egg...?
wrong thread?


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Their is an actual process of being excellent. You need to compete regularly and beat people. You can't draft god. You can draft the king, but if you don't have the coaches and the system that can convince him that a 250 pound 6'8 frame should be posting up instead of shooting three pointers, you're not going to win shit.
this is a typical attitude of anti-tankers, not sure if you guys truly don't get it, or just like to argue. Yes, building a winner requires a shitload of things done properly, and nobody is claiming all we need is to draft wiggins and the job's done. We're just concerned about how to get that superelite player that was the key ingredient for all title teams in history save one. It's a LOT easier to surround a super player with good complements than the other way around. In fact, it's nearly impossible to do it otherwise.
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The fucking Deputy commish is even considering making changes because of the nonsense internet bullshit perpetuated by fans such as yourself;
The league is considering changes because it's becoming more and more apparent that the system is broken. Like I (and others) have pointed out many times before, the current lottery system is horrible. Nobody likes to lose on purpose and losing a season for a chance to get that superstar is a high price to pay. The problem is, it's still the cheapest way to do it and until the rules are changed, you have to take advantage of them.

This is a little bit like saving your money in the RRSP. It's a horrible way to approach things, instead of spending your money now, when you're young and have so many needs, you're supposed to sacrifice the needs of today for the larger gains of tomorrow. It's not pleasant, but it beats the alternative of retiring on a government pension. Sure, some point out that you don't HAVE to save for RRSP, some people have won the lotto and others have sold their houses for 10x profit or inherited a fortune from a forgotten uncle ...

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You tankers are wiggidy wack - all of you don't know shit. you're blind...ignorant to the entire process that has defined past champions; How can you appreciate basketball? How can you appreciate the journey and adventure that makes a champion when you think it is as simple as losing and picking first?? In this age of useless advanced stats, there is no statistic that should be more important to the fan than the magical number, mathematical elimination. Embrace it and embrace this season.
usually when it seems most around you are stupid and only you see the true light, it's because you're missing something. And, unfortunately for you, it's also the case here. Let me say it again just in case you missed it. NOBODY IS SAYING THAT BUILDING A CONTENDER IS AS SIMPLE AS DRAFTING A SUPERPLAYER. Got it? What we are arguing is, in essence, that

a. you need a superstar to build a winner
b. the superstar is nearly impossible to acquire outside of the draft
c. it's very rare for a superstar to be drafted outside top 5

Each of the 3 points are not 100% accurate, which gives anti-tankers some grounds to make weak cases that tanking is not required.

I only respect one argument from the anti-tanking crowd, which is the ethical one. I can accept the fact that losing on purpose is so appalling to some, that they'd rather take the alternative approaches, however the chances. But outside that, it's unquestionable that the odds are much higher if you tank than if you don't.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:59 PM   #96 (permalink)
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I post it over and over again and will continue to do so until someone gives me reason to believe otherwise.

History shows that once you have those franchise players, so long as you are not cursed with bad management, it is much easier to build around that player. In order to build a team that can win you have to have the strengths and weaknesses of all your players covered. But in order to do that you need to know what weaknesses you will need to cover. MJ had guys like Paxson and Kerr to make up for his lackluster 3pt shooting, Lebron has shooters all around him too because it suits his play style. Fact is its much easier to get supporting guys than it is to get elite guys, when you are presented with a choice you always pick the elite guy first. What we're doing here is building a great supporting cast without knowing if it will fit the elite player we will need to take the next step.

Perhaps tanking isn't the only option, but it is by far the best one.
You talk as if there were one switch or another to choose and the course is set from there. It is and will always be a fluid situation with many choices to make. And always looking to add assets, increase value, and improve on the options available, is entirel viable and valid. Deciding to lose games at some point can be a part of that fluidity, but it hardly means a course will be set from that point on.

There is more than a supporting cast here. That is where you reveal yourself as being more in love with an idea of overhyped potential than knowing the game and how it needs to be played succesfully. You want to believe that winning teams have elite talent with supporting casts, but that just isn't true. A full, well-integrated team needs to be in place. There have been teams like Cleveland, Philadelphia, Orlando that have gone far by plugging in a bunch of shooters or specialists around one dominant player. They all came up noticeably short in the end and quickly fell apart. I personally think that building a team that can sustain success over a long period of time is a pretty good way to go. But then i'm just a treadmill guy right? As if that means something. I would point to history proving me correct in fact.
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:02 PM   #97 (permalink)
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No one is suggesting to trade all of the raps' assets. Hyperbole seems to occur a lot on here.
yeah, seems to be the norm lately.

the funny part is that if we were offered a trade of lebron (or durant) for demar/amir/jv/ross/vasquez/patterson/lowry, there is not a person on this forum that wouldn't do it without hesitation.
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:09 PM   #98 (permalink)
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yeah, seems to be the norm lately.

the funny part is that if we were offered a trade of lebron (or durant) for demar/amir/jv/ross/vasquez/patterson/lowry, there is not a person on this forum that wouldn't do it without hesitation.
So we are going to be able to draft Lebron now? This is what i truly don't get. You want to talk about how rare it is to get a superstar without a high pick, which I question to some degree. It's really extremely rare to get a Lebron even with a high pick. There are a lot of elite players that struggle to make the playoffs in any given year. It's just a bizarre process that works on paper but tends to offer no sense of direction overall in reality, unless we are going to somehow clone Lebron and pick him. If everything is about getting better, adding assets, and improving on the options to come, then you have a real framework which can include losing by design when that makes sense.
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:17 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Yeah, let's tank hard and get it over and done with. We will teach JV and Ross some winning culture on the way, we'll make DD and the rest of the young vets to ask for a trade since they had enough, and make sure we get a crappy return since all GMs around the league know we are desperate, then we draft Wiggins that we once thought is our bright future player but turned out to be Michael Beasley type of player. Sounds good to me, where do I sign up?
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Old 12-26-2013, 02:15 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Yeah, let's tank hard and get it over and done with. We will teach JV and Ross some winning culture on the way, we'll make DD and the rest of the young vets to ask for a trade since they had enough, and make sure we get a crappy return since all GMs around the league know we are desperate, then we draft Wiggins that we once thought is our bright future player but turned out to be Michael Beasley type of player. Sounds good to me, where do I sign up?
Yeah, drafting high is for scrubs, real GMs treadmill. Just let Demar chuck to his heart's content, and ignore the financial aspects of building a team. We'll sign major FAs because we came in 7th place with a record worse than .500, all the free agents love that. We'll sign them even though this team will have no cap room if we resign any of the players who are oh so valuable but are free agents this season such as Vasquez, Lowry, Patterson. The CBA doesn't affect us because WINNING CULTURE. We'll also destroy every other GM in every trade and get our star there, even though we have no assets worth a star. Hurray for blind optimism!!!
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