Treading Our way to the Trade Deadline. Part 2 - Page 10

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View Poll Results: Do you agree with Masai's patience on making trades?
Yes, We need to look for the best trade possible even if it puts us in No mans land 33 58.93%
NO, he is taking way too long to assess the situation, he needs to blow this up now! 10 17.86%
NO! It is obvious we should make trades ASAP to give us a push for the Playoffs! 2 3.57%
I have exams/work to do and don't give a crap. Go with the Flow 11 19.64%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-29-2013, 12:18 AM   #181 (permalink)
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Yeah - basically. You don't even have to try to be annoying do you?
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All I'm saying is it takes a lot more work to build from a position of winning. You might feel comfortable with that, because we have MU, but I don't. Tanking might not be the only way to build but it is the easiest. I personally see no problem taking the easy way out when it comes to building a team.

Internal growth happens, but do you really see anyone on this team becoming a star? I see JV becoming a player of a similar caliber of Joakim Noah (not his play style, just how good he will be overall). Even that is not someone you want to necessarily build around. A great piece to build with, just not a star. You might call it putting a ceiling on him, I'd say that's a reasonable prediction and I think many others can agree.

The chances of us getting a star at 15+ are low, we can agree on this, right? The chances of us finding a Steve Nash or Billups are not high either. These are both rare occurrences but you seem to be very willing to bet the whole future of this team on them.

After the Rudy trade Demar's scoring has definitely regressed, he's averaging 40.7% FG since Dec. 8th. Right now he's facing more defensive pressure because he's being shoved down our throats as the no. 1 option when it's clear he should not be one on a good team.

This team is not signing any stars in free agency. If MU re-signs Lowry or GV or Patterson or doesnt waive Salmons, we will likely be at or above the cap, certainly not having any room for max free agents.

Like I said, you seem to be comfortable that Masai will be able to get stars late in the draft and consistently get amazing packages in trades, I don't want to put that kind of faith in him yet. I don't think either of us is going to change our position.
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Old 12-29-2013, 10:59 AM   #182 (permalink)
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All I'm saying is it takes a lot more work to build from a position of winning. You might feel comfortable with that, because we have MU, but I don't. Tanking might not be the only way to build but it is the easiest. I personally see no problem taking the easy way out when it comes to building a team.

Internal growth happens, but do you really see anyone on this team becoming a star? I see JV becoming a player of a similar caliber of Joakim Noah (not his play style, just how good he will be overall). Even that is not someone you want to necessarily build around. A great piece to build with, just not a star. You might call it putting a ceiling on him, I'd say that's a reasonable prediction and I think many others can agree.

The chances of us getting a star at 15+ are low, we can agree on this, right? The chances of us finding a Steve Nash or Billups are not high either. These are both rare occurrences but you seem to be very willing to bet the whole future of this team on them.

After the Rudy trade Demar's scoring has definitely regressed, he's averaging 40.7% FG since Dec. 8th. Right now he's facing more defensive pressure because he's being shoved down our throats as the no. 1 option when it's clear he should not be one on a good team.

This team is not signing any stars in free agency. If MU re-signs Lowry or GV or Patterson or doesnt waive Salmons, we will likely be at or above the cap, certainly not having any room for max free agents.

Like I said, you seem to be comfortable that Masai will be able to get stars late in the draft and consistently get amazing packages in trades, I don't want to put that kind of faith in him yet. I don't think either of us is going to change our position.
This post just makes little sense when considering how well the Raptors are playing lately. So much is wrong with it. But whatever.

Amir Johnson is becoming a star as far as I am concerned. He is captivating me on a game by game basis. I could just focus on him playing defense and rebounding and be thoroughly entertained. He gets a hand on so many rebounds that he has no business getting a hand on, and the way he uses the backboard at times to tip the ball to himself is a unique talent. I am not saying he is the only who does it, because he is not, but he is maybe the best at it.

And his pick and roll defense is on par with Bosh, except that Amir is more of an artist with more style, while Bosh is just efficient and robotic. I think they are perhaps the two best in the league at being able to hold up and reroute guards on a pick and roll and then recovering and playing solid defense on a host of all-star pfs that they are matched up with on a regular basis.

Then Lowry and JV, both also worth the price of admission over the past two weeks. I didnt think Lowry was this good, he has raised my expectations for him. JV is getting the better of centers who are 5-10 years his senior. And Demar still looking for himself in this lineup has shown some glimpses but we have not even seen his best yet, and that is exciting.

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Old 12-29-2013, 12:07 PM   #183 (permalink)
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This post just makes little sense when considering how well the Raptors are playing lately. So much is wrong with it. But whatever.

Amir Johnson is becoming a star as far as I am concerned. He is captivating me on a game by game basis. I could just focus on him playing defense and rebounding and be thoroughly entertained. He gets a hand on so many rebounds that he has no business getting a hand on, and the way he uses the backboard at times to tip the ball to himself is a unique talent. I am not saying he is the only who does it, because he is not, but he is maybe the best at it.

And his pick and roll defense is on par with Bosh, except that Amir is more of an artist with more style, while Bosh is just efficient and robotic. I think they are perhaps the two best in the league at being able to hold up and reroute guards on a pick and roll and then recovering and playing solid defense on a host of all-star pfs that they are matched up with on a regular basis.

Then Lowry and JV, both also worth the price of admission over the past two weeks. I didnt think Lowry was this good, he has raised my expectations for him. JV is getting the better of centers who are 5-10 years his senior. And Demar still looking for himself in this lineup has shown some glimpses but we have not even seen his best yet, and that is exciting.
Great post though I have a question about this last line, with the defense and play of the team right now, IF the team decided to resign Lowry and we traded DD/2014 pick (knowing our current play will put the Raps out of the lottery) for a player like Deng for a line of Lowry/Ross/Deng/Johnson/JV, would you do it? Is that a team that can begin to contend and build on?
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Old 12-29-2013, 12:20 PM   #184 (permalink)
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Great post though I have a question about this last line, with the defense and play of the team right now, IF the team decided to resign Lowry and we traded DD/2014 pick (knowing our current play will put the Raps out of the lottery) for a player like Deng for a line of Lowry/Ross/Deng/Johnson/JV, would you do it? Is that a team that can begin to contend and build on?
I would not trade pick or DD for Deng
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Old 12-29-2013, 12:28 PM   #185 (permalink)
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I would not trade pick or DD for Deng
Well Deng was an example of the type of wing - athletic, can score/defend and create for others. Deng's achilles would worry me but again, just an example.

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Old 12-29-2013, 12:44 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Great post though I have a question about this last line, with the defense and play of the team right now, IF the team decided to resign Lowry and we traded DD/2014 pick (knowing our current play will put the Raps out of the lottery) for a player like Deng for a line of Lowry/Ross/Deng/Johnson/JV, would you do it? Is that a team that can begin to contend and build on?
I think Demar for Deng is a backwards move....and I really like Deng. If it was possible to obtain Deng to start beside Derozan, that would be awesome.

Demar is good.
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Old 12-29-2013, 12:51 PM   #187 (permalink)
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Great post though I have a question about this last line, with the defense and play of the team right now, IF the team decided to resign Lowry and we traded DD/2014 pick (knowing our current play will put the Raps out of the lottery) for a player like Deng for a line of Lowry/Ross/Deng/Johnson/JV, would you do it? Is that a team that can begin to contend and build on?
Sorry but there's no way we include the pick with DD for Deng. Second - Yes, I would prefer TR/Deng over DD/TR. Removes a defensive weaklink in the starting 5.
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Old 12-29-2013, 12:51 PM   #188 (permalink)
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I think Demar for Deng is a backwards move....and I really like Deng. If it was possible to obtain Deng to start beside Derozan, that would be awesome.

Demar is not good defensively.
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Old 12-29-2013, 12:57 PM   #189 (permalink)
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Amir Johnson is becoming a star as far as I am concerned.
I love Amir more than anybody and him along with KL are our best and most important players, but, he is not a star player and there is next to no chance whatsoever he becomes one. Just being realistic. A star player implies being probably top 20 or top 30 in the league. I'd like nothing more than for him to become one but I don't like false hope.
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Old 12-29-2013, 01:37 PM   #190 (permalink)
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The words star and superstar are thrown around way too freely among sports fans. Amir Johnson is not and will never be a star player. He's a great role player who is more than capable of starting and playing big minutes, but ultimately, I think his best role may be as a 6th man playing 30 mpg at PF/C off of the bench.

If we're really looking at improving the team now, I'd look into a Derozan for Thad Young trade. I know it's been mentioned before, but having Young and a big man core of JV Young and Amir would be one of the best in the league. I'm still a non believer that Derozan can be a good 1 or 2 primary guy on offence(I think we're better off going the route of other teams in that we play through our PG and bigs, with a lot of high pick and roll, instead of inefficient plays involving Demar), and his defence still isn't good enough. I really do think that TRoss is a better fit at the starting 2 in todays NBA than Demar is, as long as we have a creator at point and a soon to be consistent scoring big in JV.
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Old 12-29-2013, 01:49 PM   #191 (permalink)
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The words star and superstar are thrown around way too freely among sports fans. Amir Johnson is not and will never be a star player. He's a great role player who is more than capable of starting and playing big minutes, but ultimately, I think his best role may be as a 6th man playing 30 mpg at PF/C off of the bench.

If we're really looking at improving the team now, I'd look into a Derozan for Thad Young trade. I know it's been mentioned before, but having Young and a big man core of JV Young and Amir would be one of the best in the league. I'm still a non believer that Derozan can be a good 1 or 2 primary guy on offence(I think we're better off going the route of other teams in that we play through our PG and bigs, with a lot of high pick and roll, instead of inefficient plays involving Demar), and his defence still isn't good enough. I really do think that TRoss is a better fit at the starting 2 in todays NBA than Demar is, as long as we have a creator at point and a soon to be consistent scoring big in JV.
I agree about TR as the starting 2 - he really is developing nicely. Again, Deng was an example. I like the idea of Thad with Amir off the bench as well but then I've advocated many times for Amir as a 6th man for the same reasons as yourself.

My ideal player to nab would be Lance as Indy is facing almost the exact same scenario as OKC did with Harden. I can see Lance exploding like Harden did if he was out from George and Hill and I love watching LS leading the second unit. I'm sure Indy will do whatever they can to keep him but that's a player that could potentially be available next summer.
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Old 12-29-2013, 01:53 PM   #192 (permalink)
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The words star and superstar are thrown around way too freely among sports fans. Amir Johnson is not and will never be a star player. He's a great role player who is more than capable of starting and playing big minutes, but ultimately, I think his best role may be as a 6th man playing 30 mpg at PF/C off of the bench.

If we're really looking at improving the team now, I'd look into a Derozan for Thad Young trade. I know it's been mentioned before, but having Young and a big man core of JV Young and Amir would be one of the best in the league. I'm still a non believer that Derozan can be a good 1 or 2 primary guy on offence(I think we're better off going the route of other teams in that we play through our PG and bigs, with a lot of high pick and roll, instead of inefficient plays involving Demar), and his defence still isn't good enough. I really do think that TRoss is a better fit at the starting 2 in todays NBA than Demar is, as long as we have a creator at point and a soon to be consistent scoring big in JV.
Well said regarding Amir.

Interesting deal. I do agree that DD's d gets glossed over too much. P+R being run for Amir and JV with KL being able to kickout to TR or Thad sounds pretty good.

I don't know if Philly wants that deal though. Wouldn't they be looking for caprelief + a pick for Thad? Also -kind of aside -what would they do with/what are they going to do with Turner?
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Old 12-29-2013, 01:57 PM   #193 (permalink)
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I agree about TR as the starting 2 - he really is developing nicely. Again, Deng was an example. I like the idea of Thad with Amir off the bench as well but then I've advocated many times for Amir as a 6th man for the same reasons as yourself.

My ideal player to nab would be Lance as Indy is facing almost the exact same scenario as OKC did with Harden. I can see Lance exploding like Harden did if he was out from George and Hill and I love watching LS leading the second unit. I'm sure Indy will do whatever they can to keep him but that's a player that could potentially be available next summer.
Woops didn't read that Young would be mainly a PF. This team would still require a SF though if Young is rotating with Amir and JV.

Yeah that could happen and maybe, just maybe this team could be the team to benefit from it. Lance would start here but who would he partner in the backcourt?
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Old 12-29-2013, 02:33 PM   #194 (permalink)
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I dont really see how or why we'd get Stephenson when we already have 2 players at that position, we have bigger needs to fill.

I'd look to trade Derozan for a starting PF, or young player+future 1st, or a young SF either by the deadline or in the off season. I don't want Deng though, he's the kind of guy you get as a last piece to the puzzle, getting him for 10+ million would be a huge mistake despite his solid play. We'd be stuck back in mediocrity with him on the team since we wouldnt be able to properly fill out the rest of the roster due to his salary, and I dont think he'd be worth it at 10+mil as our highest paid player, as he isn't good enough to be a primary guy especially offensively.
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Old 12-29-2013, 03:46 PM   #195 (permalink)
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I dont really see how or why we'd get Stephenson when we already have 2 players at that position, we have bigger needs to fill.

I'd look to trade Derozan for a starting PF, or young player+future 1st, or a young SF either by the deadline or in the off season. I don't want Deng though, he's the kind of guy you get as a last piece to the puzzle, getting him for 10+ million would be a huge mistake despite his solid play. We'd be stuck back in mediocrity with him on the team since we wouldnt be able to properly fill out the rest of the roster due to his salary, and I dont think he'd be worth it at 10+mil as our highest paid player, as he isn't good enough to be a primary guy especially offensively.
Well, I disagree with your thinking in that last paragraph. JV should be the #1 option on offense and the team should go inside out regardless of who is brought in.

I would think if KL is traded it will be for a first plus a player or a prospect and a player. NY is still the obvious team to trade with I would think, go after Tim Hardaway Jr. NY will go hard as I'm sure they don't want Denver with a top 10 pick in this coming draft. Flip Tim Jr, future first and filler and bring Lance over in the summer - or something along those lines. Trade this year's middling 1st/Hayes/filler for Thad.

That would be Lance/TRoss/DD/Thad/JV with Amir/Vasquez/Patterson off the bench.

Just ideas. MU can do anything but I think the Raps are heading towards a very good position this summer. So many possibilities.
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Old 12-29-2013, 04:02 PM   #196 (permalink)
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Could even forget trying to have Lance as a pg - though I think he would excel. Go after Lance and Wroten. Lots of possibilities though I think most moves will happen in the summer after the draft order is sorted out.
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Old 12-29-2013, 04:09 PM   #197 (permalink)
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Well, I disagree with your thinking in that last paragraph. JV should be the #1 option on offense and the team should go inside out regardless of who is brought in.
I think you misread what I said, because I completely agree that we should be featuring JV as the number one guy once he's ready. I said that I dont like Deng as a fit for this team with Derozan still on it, because I dont think theyd fit well together especially offensively, and he'd tie up our cap situation. In the situation we're currently in, I dont think him being our top paid player is advantageous, as he isn't good enough to be the top guy.

Deng is like Iguodala, he's a guy who's a great fit in a team that's looking to make the next step to being a contender, but is miscast as a primary or secondary option on offence, thus him not fitting in here for the salary he will command.

Thad Young would be a better fit here because he is a lot like Amir in that they don't need plays called for them to be effective, though Thad is a much more talented offensive player, and an underrated defender. He'd make us a lot better offensively with his ability to stretch the floor and take 4's off of the dribble, not to mention his offensive rebounding and toughness inside.

On another note, Lance isn't a PG, and I don't like giving him a big contact to experiment with that. Who's to say he doesn't go back to being the old Lance once he's given the keys to the offence of a non contender? I think he's one of those players that excels in an environment where he doesn't have to be a primary guy especially offensively, but if you put him on a worse team and let him control a lot of the offence, he'll struggle and it could create problems. Just my take, and I'm a big Lance fan.
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Old 12-29-2013, 04:33 PM   #198 (permalink)
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I think you misread what I said, because I completely agree that we should be featuring JV as the number one guy once he's ready. I said that I dont like Deng as a fit for this team with Derozan still on it, because I dont think theyd fit well together especially offensively, and he'd tie up our cap situation. In the situation we're currently in, I dont think him being our top paid player is advantageous, as he isn't good enough to be the top guy.

Deng is like Iguodala, he's a guy who's a great fit in a team that's looking to make the next step to being a contender, but is miscast as a primary or secondary option on offence, thus him not fitting in here for the salary he will command.

Thad Young would be a better fit here because he is a lot like Amir in that they don't need plays called for them to be effective, though Thad is a much more talented offensive player, and an underrated defender. He'd make us a lot better offensively with his ability to stretch the floor and take 4's off of the dribble, not to mention his offensive rebounding and toughness inside.

On another note, Lance isn't a PG, and I don't like giving him a big contact to experiment with that. Who's to say he doesn't go back to being the old Lance once he's given the keys to the offence of a non contender? I think he's one of those players that excels in an environment where he doesn't have to be a primary guy especially offensively, but if you put him on a worse team and let him control a lot of the offence, he'll struggle and it could create problems. Just my take, and I'm a big Lance fan.
Ok that makes much more sense as I did mis read that - my apologies.

I think Lance could be a pg but then he would be great as a starting 2 and a backup pg as he is in Indiana. I don't necessarily agree about the rest though regarding his potential regression if he came here.
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Old 12-29-2013, 05:47 PM   #199 (permalink)
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The words star and superstar are thrown around way too freely among sports fans. Amir Johnson is not and will never be a star player. He's a great role player who is more than capable of starting and playing big minutes, but ultimately, I think his best role may be as a 6th man playing 30 mpg at PF/C off of the bench.

If we're really looking at improving the team now, I'd look into a Derozan for Thad Young trade. I know it's been mentioned before, but having Young and a big man core of JV Young and Amir would be one of the best in the league. I'm still a non believer that Derozan can be a good 1 or 2 primary guy on offence(I think we're better off going the route of other teams in that we play through our PG and bigs, with a lot of high pick and roll, instead of inefficient plays involving Demar), and his defence still isn't good enough. I really do think that TRoss is a better fit at the starting 2 in todays NBA than Demar is, as long as we have a creator at point and a soon to be consistent scoring big in JV.
If we put T-Ross at the 2 we're basically starting over at that spot AGAIN. Not a fan unless we have that dynamic PG and a capable 3 man who can also handle the ball.

I like Thad and would be all over that trade if he wasn't so similar to Amir... I'd actually prefer a more bruising type of big to add to the front line... someone who can bang with guys like Zach and D12 and Drummond. JV/Amit/Thad would get mauled by those guys.
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Old 12-29-2013, 09:28 PM   #200 (permalink)
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If we put T-Ross at the 2 we're basically starting over at that spot AGAIN. Not a fan unless we have that dynamic PG and a capable 3 man who can also handle the ball.

I like Thad and would be all over that trade if he wasn't so similar to Amir... I'd actually prefer a more bruising type of big to add to the front line... someone who can bang with guys like Zach and D12 and Drummond. JV/Amit/Thad would get mauled by those guys.
Thad and Amir might but not JV. I agree that a bruising type would be an interesting thought though I do agree with BDL, a Thad or Ersan or Frye type stretch 4 - pull bigs away from the basket so the perimeter players and JV can work inside.
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