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-   -   Time to Trade Bargs (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/time-trade-bargs-24092.html)

Carlito 11-22-2012 12:12 PM

Time to Trade Bargs
 
If you have been following any of my comments over the last couple of years, I have been a Bargs supporter.

After watching him play for 7 years, he is not our solution or a key building block to our future. If he was our 6th man .. fine, but that will never happen with BC. I'm not saying that Davis should be our starter .. he is at best a potentially decent bench player (not even sure if he is at that level yet).

You get what you get with Bargs ... talent, teasing excellent performance, and inconsistency.

Time to close this chapter and make a trade. Get some young PF wtih talent and a possible draft pick. My reasoning with the PF is that there seems to be more available players at this position. Would love a 3, but not sure how to convert Bargs in a trade to a suitable 3 that will help us.

Sorry Bargs ... hope it would of worked here in Raptorland

Raptorman 11-22-2012 12:18 PM

BC or Bargs or both. We have been very patient. Enough already.

wchoi213 11-22-2012 12:34 PM

I still can't agree with idea of trading Barg..

Barg has a really good offensive skill and we need to utilize his strength in the game.
Once Raptors turn into a winning team, people will recognize Bargnani and we can get decent players/pick with Bargnani trade. At this moment, he is just one-dimensional player from a losing team.

Despite of his great offensive skills, Raps could not win games.. Having said that, which team, do you think, would trade away picks and/or young PF for him?

jeffb 11-22-2012 12:38 PM

Bargnani here 6 seasons, Calderon here since Babcock. Both need to go and we need to move on from those two pylons. It all depends what you can get and at this point it's probably not much. It's funny that this team has said they're changing the culture yet their two worst defenders continue to play big minutes. And every 4th quarter lead we've caughed up so far this season, these two were on the court.

And as i said yesterday, if we could get a reputable replacement Colangelo can go too.

creative1mm 11-22-2012 01:22 PM

got to go back to what works.. Glenwald brought in Oakley, Davis.. Childs etc.. mental toughness, Lowry an val have it, DD is starting to show it.. a new culture that we have lacked for so many years. Bargnanni and Calderon are apart of this losing culture, Bargnanni can't lead this team, with his lack of rebounding and poor shot selection. It is time we move in a different direction. How many times have we seen Bargnanni miss the shot to either tie or put us up in the dying seconds, sure he got fouled last night, but referees aren't going to give him that call

thought 11-22-2012 01:27 PM

the spurs have been winning consistently for more than a decade. who are the constants? pop, duncan, the front office, parker, ginobili. they've been there since day 1. and rightfully so, they've never stopped winning.

we're like the antithesis of the spurs. we've been losing consistently for 6 years. who are the constants? bargs, calderon, BC. they've been here since then. why?

say what you want about bargs' skill...fine, i agree. he's sick, well he's not actually sick, but the idea of him is sick. except we get it once every 5 games, and even that one game doesn't make up for his creampuff play on D and on the boards. put him somewhere else where his lack of motivation and general disinterest won't infect the culture of the team, like it has here. bargnani is a disease.

"dude what's wrong, seriously, you're sleeping in, going into work late, eating mcdonalds twice a day, drinking on the job. what the fuck is wrong with you?"

"case of the bargnanis man..."

Ball Don't Lie 11-22-2012 01:41 PM

Quote:

Barg has a really good offensive skill and we need to utilize his strength in the game.
Once Raptors turn into a winning team, people will recognize Bargnani and we can get decent players/pick with Bargnani trade. At this moment, he is just one-dimensional player from a losing team.
Your point makes no sense. Right now hes a one dimensional player from a losing team, but when we turn into a winning team he'll net us good players/picks? How will we turn into a winning team with this one dimensional fool, as currently constructed? Its enough of trying to build around Bargs and his deficiencies.

We need to dump the guys who dont play as hard and cause defensive breakdowns with their horrible defence and bring players in that can hold their own on defence and always play with high intensity.

If we trade Bargs for an expiring deal, and Calderon is then off the books since he'll expire, and we then amnesty Amir or Kleiza, how much cap space will we have(I hope DanH sees this)?

The player we should be going after in the offseason if we can get enough capspace is Paul Millsap. He'd be an absolute perfect fit with JV in the frontcourt, and pick and pop/roll with Lowry. A core of Lowry/Derozan/Millsap/JV would be fantastic, we'd just need to surround them with the right vets.

moremilk 11-22-2012 02:01 PM

we can always trade bargnani for an expiring contract and I see no downside to hold on until the summer. The only scary scenario is if the plays even worse, but I doubt it.

There will be one big opportunity at the deadline when teams get crazier and sometimes reach for that missing piece.

The upside to waiting is that he may return to last season's form, or even to his usual form.

But I agree, barring some massive defensive performance, bargnani needs to go by the start of next season, provided we can get a good offensive player to replace him. Otherwise, it could get nasty because even without bargnani, we've still played middle of the pack defense at best. And offensively, it would be a disaster without andrea.

ClingRap 11-22-2012 02:05 PM

Bargs has absolutely no feel for the game. He isn't good enough to take it over. There's a difference between being hot, and dominant. He gets hot, and then starts hoisting which is why he's had so many games where he starts hot, hits 5 or 6 shots and then misses his next dozen or so. For all the talk about his play-making abilities, I have yet to see him pass and read a defense that warrants all of the praise he had coming in about being a multifaceted offensive weapon. also, what's his go-to move? all the big ones have at least one.

I would love to see Millsap here. Casey would to. His offensive skill-set is underrated, but he's an absolute beast on the defensive end, does it all.

DDUnreal 11-22-2012 02:07 PM

C'mon his go to move is that hilarious pump fake

'trane 11-22-2012 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thriller92 (Post 707791)

If we trade Bargs for an expiring deal, and Calderon is then off the books since he'll expire, and we then amnesty Amir or Kleiza, how much cap space will we have(I hope DanH sees this)?

i think this is the answer, but i'd love to have someone correct me if i am wrong.

these numbers are sham's - ShamSports.com: Toronto Raptors salary information

-jose is $10.5 mil expiring (we would have to relinquish his rights)
-bargnani is $10.75 mil next year
-amir is $6.5 next year

we have an $81 million total cap hit next year, including all cap holds (instead of the actual option value). this includes:

-a cap hold of $15 mil for jose
-a player option for kleiza ($8.74 mil cap hold, but the option is only $4.6 mil)
-a player option for gray (hold is $3.347, option is $2.69)
-a team option for john lucas (hold is $1.8, option is $1.5)
-a cap hold of less than $1 mil for alan anderson
-$1.1 mil unguaranteed for mcguire

without jose we have $59 mil in total salaries next year, options and unguaranteed amounts included.

assuming we renounce jose in the offseason, deal bargs for an expiring before the deadline, amnesty amir, ditch anderson, mcguire, and lucas, and that kleiza and gray pick up the option, that would mean we would have about $39.3 mil in salaries, assuming we don't have a first round pick.

the salary cap is just over $58 million this year. that gives us $19 million or so in space if it stays the same. edit - we may also need to include cap holds for exceptions. someone will have to fill this in for me...

freeing up a bit less than $19 mil gives us a team of:

lowry, derozan, ross, kleiza, fields, davis, acy, gray, valanciunas.


-edit - i believe lowry's deal is non-guaranteed for next year as well (at $6.2 mil), but i don't think there's a chance that they don't hold on to him.

jeffb 11-22-2012 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 707811)
i think this is the answer, but i'd love to have someone correct me if i am wrong.

these numbers are sham's - ShamSports.com: Toronto Raptors salary information

-jose is $10.5 mil expiring (we would have to relinquish his rights)
-bargnani is $10.75 mil next year
-amir is $6.5 next year

we have an $81 million total cap hit next year, including all cap holds (instead of the actual option value). this includes:

-a cap hold of $15 mil for jose
-a player option for kleiza ($8.74 mil cap hold, but the option is only $4.6 mil)
-a player option for gray (hold is $3.347, option is $2.69)
-a team option for john lucas (hold is $1.8, option is $1.5)
-a cap hold of less than $1 mil for alan anderson
-$1.1 mil unguaranteed for mcguire

without jose we have $59 mil in total salaries next year, options and unguaranteed amounts included.

assuming we renounce jose in the offseason, deal bargs for an expiring before the deadline, amnesty amir, ditch anderson, mcguire, and lucas, and that kleiza and gray pick up the option, that would mean we would have about $39.3 mil in salaries, assuming we don't have a first round pick.

the salary cap is just over $58 million this year. that gives us $19 million or so in space if it stays the same.

freeing up that $19 mil gives us a team of:

lowry, derozan, ross, kleiza, fields, davis, acy, gray, valanciunas.


-edit - i believe lowry's deal is non-guaranteed for next year as well (at $6.2 mil), but i don't think there's a chance that they don't hold on to him.

Hmmmm, 9 players under contract + 20mil in capspace? Giddy up! Lol

'trane 11-22-2012 02:51 PM

there might be other holds for the exceptions. we wouldn't have an mle, but would have some others, so we're likely another couple of mil or so short of that $19... this is where we need danh...

INSIDER 11-22-2012 02:54 PM

ive supported Bargs in the past, but those days are done. the fact that he can score 20 a game does not mean jack shit. look past his scoring, what else does he do? he hinders us more than helps us. he provides one thing - scoring. he hurts us is D, rebs, non-agressiveness... i could go on. the worst part of this is that he is our PF/C. if he were a SG or SF, maybe he would get a pass, but as our PF/C, we will not win with him on the team.

i dont understand how anyone can back him anymore.
so what if he can score 20 a game, Mike James averaged 20 a game and everyone here wanted him gone. why? beause he didnt do anything else and made us worse. bargnani is doing the exact same.

fancylad 11-22-2012 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER (Post 707817)
ive supported Bargs in the past, but those days are done. the fact that he can score 20 a game does not mean jack shit. look past his scoring, what else does he do? he hinders us more than helps us. he provides one thing - scoring. he hurts us is D, rebs, non-agressiveness... i could go on. the worst part of this is that he is our PF/C. if he were a SG or SF, maybe he would get a pass, but as our PF/C, we will not win with him on the team.

i dont understand how anyone can back him anymore.
so what if he can score 20 a game, Mike James averaged 20 a game and everyone here wanted him gone. why? beause he didnt do anything else and made us worse. bargnani is doing the exact same.

same here dude. I'm getting real tired of seeing the same old same old every freaking time now. In the words of Jack Armstrong get that gahbage outa here.

jeffb 11-22-2012 03:24 PM

10 months ago.....


Quote:

Originally Posted by rapsmannn (Post 614378)
ya the article has some truth to it but the fact is if bargs never got hurt in utah he would have an allstar or on the list on espn of top allstar snubs

the 3 guys that i key on are igoudola, deng, and hibbert,

bargnani is a superior basketball player over these guys, even if you offered all 3 for bargs you would have a tough time making that trade


http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/chi...tml#post615052

Dbailey 11-22-2012 03:26 PM

What is Brian drinking.
 
How in the world Is Andrea B still on this Raptors team?
If we could not win with Chris Bosh as our Pf how in the work
Are we suppose to win with Andrea? Raptors fans there are things behind the scenes
We can not see or information that we do not know. AB on the raptors is not a basketball move. Do not get emotional fans basketball is a business like everything elNew York for the US Thanksgiving hope everythings changed every little action the

The MVP of West Hollywood 11-22-2012 03:33 PM

One of the problems with the Raps is that we look to dump a player as soon as everyone else doesn't want him for the reasons we don't. I don't think there's much of a market out there for Bargs right now, I can't really find any great trading partners for him. The time to move him was this summer when his value was relatively high. Bargs is getting pretty close to bad contract level right now

I think we'd be looking at someone along the lines of Jeff Green or Wilson Chandler, tbh

Dbailey 11-22-2012 03:52 PM

My phone is being stupid, the end of that message makes no sense.

pzabby 11-22-2012 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The MVP of West Hollywood (Post 707823)
One of the problems with the Raps is that we look to dump a player as soon as everyone else doesn't want him for the reasons we don't. I don't think there's much of a market out there for Bargs right now, I can't really find any great trading partners for him. The time to move him was this summer when his value was relatively high. Bargs is getting pretty close to bad contract level right now

I think we'd be looking at someone along the lines of Jeff Green or Wilson Chandler, tbh

add a pick to them and i'd be happy with that haul. they're not bargnani offensively, but they'll definitley contribute in all areas, which is what a sf is supposed to do. but if LF comes back and plays well, which i expect, we might end up having a log jam at the guard spot and look thin up top. can amir or davis be a starting pf, even for a year? that is the question


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