Tier 2? Really?
Old 05-09-2012, 08:31 PM   #1 (permalink)
T. Ross IS The Phantom Menace.

Lackey
 
Ammo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Mighty North Tundra
Posts: 3,528
Representing:
Default Tier 2? Really?

I asked once what the end game of this re-build is and whether being a team like the Atlanta Hawks is a desired goal, as a destination. i,e make the playoffs 5 out of 6 years in a row, get dimissed in the 1st or 2nd round and keep paying for 2nd tier stars. A bunch of folks said that would be great considering we've been nothing so far.

I like being in the playoffs and having some relevance too, but I consider tier 2 teams fodder for other teams. Teams that spend. I can honestly say that the Hawks are a "nice team" but I don't actually have much respect for them. They're playoff filler. And they'll continue to draft 17th to 24th until they return to irrelvance.

Dropping back to irrelevance for Toronto basketball without any real achievement would probably be more harsh because it would be as if we never even achieved anything. "Same old Craptors. Move the team from Canada. They're the league joke."

I know stud players don't grow on trees, but we may need some creative management to get one to build around. And spend around, because stud players attract other stud players. I think we need to be serious contenders for a championship as an end game, not 2nd tier.

If we're the 5th biggest market in N.A, make profit and have fan support even when losing, we should be serious about joining the other big players. They are going to have to eliminate the excuse this time that they will join the big boys when the team is close. I don't want to see Fred Jones and Jason Kapono anymore.

Ammo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 08:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

Senior Member
 
pzabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: toronto
Posts: 6,904
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
I asked once what the end game of this re-build is and whether being a team like the Atlanta Hawks is a desired goal, as a destination. i,e make the playoffs 5 out of 6 years in a row, get dimissed in the 1st or 2nd round and keep paying for 2nd tier stars. A bunch of folks said that would be great considering we've been nothing so far.

I like being in the playoffs and having some relevance too, but I consider tier 2 teams fodder for other teams. Teams that spend. I can honestly say that the Hawks are a "nice team" but I don't actually have much respect for them. They're playoff filler. And they'll continue to draft 17th to 24th until they return to irrelvance.

Dropping back to irrelevance for Toronto basketball without any real achievement would probably be more harsh because it would be as if we never even achieved anything. "Same old Craptors. Move the team from Canada. They're the league joke."

I know stud players don't grow on trees, but we may need some creative management to get one to build around. And spend around, because stud players attract other stud players. I think we need to be serious contenders for a championship as an end game, not 2nd tier.

If we're the 5th biggest market in N.A, make profit and have fan support even when losing, we should be serious about joining the other big players. They are going to have to eliminate the excuse this time that they will join the big boys when the team is close. I don't want to see Fred Jones and Jason Kapono anymore.

i cringed at the photo
pzabby is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 08:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
T. Ross IS The Phantom Menace.

Lackey
 
Ammo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Mighty North Tundra
Posts: 3,528
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pzabby View Post
i cringed at the photo
I'm sure that ended well.
Ammo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 08:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
waiting for his team to return

Member
 
Grizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 483
Representing:
Default

Which teams do you consider first tier? Out of that group, how many of those teams are able to get there without a top 10 player?
Grizz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:02 PM   #5 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,223
Representing:
Default

I think the team we should try to emulate is Indy. I've been following their moves for the past few seasons and their decisions roster-wise have been brilliant. They have practically no bad contracts and although may not possess a superstar, they have a solid lineup. I think they should look to improve @ PG.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:02 PM   #6 (permalink)
is dead inside

you ain't bout that life
 
Gurk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 21,099
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
I asked once what the end game of this re-build is and whether being a team like the Atlanta Hawks is a desired goal, as a destination. i,e make the playoffs 5 out of 6 years in a row, get dimissed in the 1st or 2nd round and keep paying for 2nd tier stars. A bunch of folks said that would be great considering we've been nothing so far.

I like being in the playoffs and having some relevance too, but I consider tier 2 teams fodder for other teams. Teams that spend. I can honestly say that the Hawks are a "nice team" but I don't actually have much respect for them. They're playoff filler. And they'll continue to draft 17th to 24th until they return to irrelvance.

Dropping back to irrelevance for Toronto basketball without any real achievement would probably be more harsh because it would be as if we never even achieved anything. "Same old Craptors. Move the team from Canada. They're the league joke."

I know stud players don't grow on trees, but we may need some creative management to get one to build around. And spend around, because stud players attract other stud players. I think we need to be serious contenders for a championship as an end game, not 2nd tier.

If we're the 5th biggest market in N.A, make profit and have fan support even when losing, we should be serious about joining the other big players. They are going to have to eliminate the excuse this time that they will join the big boys when the team is close. I don't want to see Fred Jones and Jason Kapono anymore.

+1

This is why I support tanking. Might as well be absolute crap and build a good young team that develops into something good. Get some good vets and we will be on our way.

I absolutely hated being in that limbo a couple years back with Bosh, where we would be the 4-5th seed and get knocked out. That was horrible to watch
Gurk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:03 PM   #7 (permalink)
T. Ross IS The Phantom Menace.

Lackey
 
Ammo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Mighty North Tundra
Posts: 3,528
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz View Post
Which teams do you consider first tier? Out of that group, how many of those teams are able to get there without a top 10 player?
There are only a few teams that can be considered largest markets. And they tend to go out of their way to spend. We're frustrated over "bad management" but I can't say we've purposed to join the big boys. I know the Knicks create their own disasters, but some like Boston and Miami got creative and some decided to spend like Dallas, NY and L.A.

At least they make it a point to be "big market".

When Vince was here, they should have been spending to ge other studs.

When Chris Bosh left, he said, "You're going to have to spend. Bye!"

They purposed to sell some tickets and make money. When they do this rebuild and are in 5th to 8th as a goal and are content, we've still got problems.
Ammo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:05 PM   #8 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 73,543
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurk View Post

I absolutely hated being in that limbo a couple years back with Bosh, where we would be the 4-5th seed and get knocked out. That was horrible to watch
The 4-5th seed isn't bad as long as we have the right defensive system and toughness that can get us some success in the playoffs. It's all fine and good to say shoot for #1 but that's not realistic for the next couple years.
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:06 PM   #9 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,223
Representing:
Default

Just to be fair, we were 3rd once, winning the division and losing 1st round in the playoffs. Then we were 6th and lost 1st round in the playoffs. Not really much of a limbo. Then through some strange divine intervention (call it bad luck, bad coaching, an unbalanced roster,etc) they missed the playoffs in 09-10 (well, Ed Davis was ok as compensation).
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
Landing flight 31

Senior Member
 
0nekhmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Brampton Ontario
Posts: 3,106
Representing:
Default

This is my fear too.. BC with sooo much flexibility and aiming "to make the playoffs" seems like he's gonna do stupid moves like the hedo, Marion, O'Neal trades. I don't exactly know what "the plan" is but I really hope it doesn't involve quick fix players..
0nekhmer is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:41 PM   #11 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 73,543
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0nekhmer View Post
This is my fear too.. BC with sooo much flexibility and aiming "to make the playoffs" seems like he's gonna do stupid moves like the hedo, Marion, O'Neal trades. I don't exactly know what "the plan" is but I really hope it doesn't involve quick fix players..
It's always great to call moves that were popular at the time they occured stupid now. lol
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
Captain of the Jamario Moon fan club.

Born Unready
 
Dark Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Electric Avenue
Posts: 15,479
Representing:
Default

I'm all for tanking, as long as I see improvement. I don't want to be competing with the Bobcats for the first pick forever. I want to see the young guys continue to gel and grow together as a unit. I want to see Casey implement his game strategies and turn around the culture of this team. I want to see Colangelo make smart free agent signings that will benefit the future, not the present.

I want to see playoff basketball in Toronto again before I'm 30.
Dark Knight is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 10:32 AM   #13 (permalink)
Exalted

Senior Member
 
DDUnreal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,332
Representing:
Default

To be fair Atlanta is probably the least respected perrenial playoff team. Such a weird group of players that you can never really judge how motivated they'll really be. But yes I think most people here would rather aim high as opposed to the perrenial playoff spot. I think making the playoffs just to do it is more of a casual fan thing, ala the toronto maple leafs.
DDUnreal is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 11:09 AM   #14 (permalink)
waiting for his team to return

Member
 
Grizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 483
Representing:
Default

No one seems to be acknolwedging my first post so I'll spell it out more clearly. It's great to aim to be better than a first or second round playoff team, but look at the teams that can do that on a consistent basis:
San Antonio: Draft best PF of all time, get some phenomenal late draft value
Dallas: Draft top 5 PF of all time
Miami: Draft top 3 SG of his generation, swing biggest FA off-season in history
OKC: Draft top 2 SF of his generation, continue to hit jackpot in draft
Chicago: Draft top 5 PG of his generation
Lakers: Draft top 5 SG of all time, have unlimited funds for support
Celtics: Draft top 5 SF of his generation, wait 10 years, convince best wing shooter of all time and arguably best defensive PF of our lifetime to join you through trade.

Let me know which of these avenues you see us pursuing. Otherwise our templates are Memphis/Indiana which, unless something changes, will likely be 1st/2nd round fodder this season.
Grizz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 03:02 PM   #15 (permalink)
in Goran Dragic bandwagon.

Member
 
OP13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lithuania
Posts: 171
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz View Post
No one seems to be acknolwedging my first post so I'll spell it out more clearly. It's great to aim to be better than a first or second round playoff team, but look at the teams that can do that on a consistent basis:
San Antonio: Draft best PF of all time, get some phenomenal late draft value
Dallas: Draft top 5 PF of all time
Miami: Draft top 3 SG of his generation, swing biggest FA off-season in history
OKC: Draft top 2 SF of his generation, continue to hit jackpot in draft
Chicago: Draft top 5 PG of his generation
Lakers: Draft top 5 SG of all time, have unlimited funds for support
Celtics: Draft top 5 SF of his generation, wait 10 years, convince best wing shooter of all time and arguably best defensive PF of our lifetime to join you through trade.

Let me know which of these avenues you see us pursuing. Otherwise our templates are Memphis/Indiana which, unless something changes, will likely be 1st/2nd round fodder this season.
So basically you are saying that we only need to draft a player who will become Top3 in the league and Raptors are contenders for years to come. That looks like a good strategy. Now we got to find the player..
OP13 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 03:08 PM   #16 (permalink)
the only guy who thinks Terrence Ross will be an all-star

Senior Member
 
The MVP of West Hollywood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,129
Representing:
Default

Eh, on one hand there's Atl as a tier 2 team and on the other hand there's Indy and Memphis and Denver who have much more interesting cores. Atl has made some mistakes. For example they basically traded their 2010 and 2011 1sts for Kirk Hinrich (deal was technically Crawford/2011 1st) when Hinrich was just going to make them a more competitive easy knockout. Good teams don't make moves that short sighted. Joe Johnson deal, etc. Atlanta's plan seems to be to keep making 1st/2nd round knockouts and collecting the playoff season cheques. Basically you can be a tier 2 team with more ambition than that.
The MVP of West Hollywood is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 07:30 PM   #17 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,495
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
There are only a few teams that can be considered largest markets. And they tend to go out of their way to spend. We're frustrated over "bad management" but I can't say we've purposed to join the big boys. I know the Knicks create their own disasters, but some like Boston and Miami got creative and some decided to spend like Dallas, NY and L.A.

At least they make it a point to be "big market".

When Vince was here, they should have been spending to ge other studs.

When Chris Bosh left, he said, "You're going to have to spend. Bye!"

They purposed to sell some tickets and make money. When they do this rebuild and are in 5th to 8th as a goal and are content, we've still got problems.
I don't think we have ever been good enough to justify spending past the cap. Get us top 10 in the league and perhaps then it happens. City will get behind a winner and UFAs will sign here, but only if the team is good and it spends. There was little point spending over the cap when Bosh was here fwiw.

PS lakers didn't draft kobe unless my memory is failing.

Last edited by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu; 05-10-2012 at 07:32 PM.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 07:43 PM   #18 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Membres supérieurs
 
DocHoliday99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 4,769
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
I don't think we have ever been good enough to justify spending past the cap. Get us top 10 in the league and perhaps then it happens. City will get behind a winner and UFAs will sign here, but only if the team is good and it spends. There was little point spending over the cap when Bosh was here fwiw.

PS lakers didn't draft kobe unless my memory is failing.
Nope, the Bobcats agreed to trade the rights to their 13th pick for Lakers starting center Vlade Divac the day before the draft. Lakers then told them to select Bryant 5 minutes before they had to pick the next day. So technically no the Lakers didn't draft Bryant but in reality with the trade, you can make an argument to say they did. West absolutely wanted Bryant and made it happen prior to the draft
DocHoliday99 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 07:55 PM   #19 (permalink)
waiting for his team to return

Member
 
Grizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 483
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHoliday99 View Post
Nope, the Bobcats agreed to trade the rights to their 13th pick for Lakers starting center Vlade Divac the day before the draft. Lakers then told them to select Bryant 5 minutes before they had to pick the next day. So technically no the Lakers didn't draft Bryant but in reality with the trade, you can make an argument to say they did. West absolutely wanted Bryant and made it happen prior to the draft
Yes, I also consider us having drafted Vince and Minnesota drafting Love. If you leave the draft with the guy you might as well have drafted him from my point of view.
Grizz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 07:58 PM   #20 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,495
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHoliday99 View Post
Nope, the Bobcats agreed to trade the rights to their 13th pick for Lakers starting center Vlade Divac the day before the draft. Lakers then told them to select Bryant 5 minutes before they had to pick the next day. So technically no the Lakers didn't draft Bryant but in reality with the trade, you can make an argument to say they did. West absolutely wanted Bryant and made it happen prior to the draft
Oh... I thought they traded for him well after the draft... memory bad.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24