tanking is hard .... - Page 2
Old 01-22-2012, 02:26 AM   #21 (permalink)
Jimmy Butler IS The Phantom Menace.

Lackey
 
Ammo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Mighty North Tundra
Posts: 3,606
Representing:
Default

Are you saying empty the cupboard completely for picks? Part of tanking to me is seeing what you have, which they are. Bargnani, Demar, Ed, Amir several bubble guys and several scrubs. So no, I can't say I'm with the script yet where you have a 5th pick and move Bargnani for a 6th. If he's worth a higher pick, then I'd consider it.
Ammo is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 02:58 AM   #22 (permalink)
a nacho hound

Senior Member
 
Toby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South of Portland, home of the Blazers
Posts: 5,212
Representing:
Default

Toby is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 12:46 PM   #23 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,298
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
Are you saying empty the cupboard completely for picks? Part of tanking to me is seeing what you have, which they are. Bargnani, Demar, Ed, Amir several bubble guys and several scrubs. So no, I can't say I'm with the script yet where you have a 5th pick and move Bargnani for a 6th. If he's worth a higher pick, then I'd consider it.
In the case of the Sonics at the time, they made the move to clean the slate and help change the culture completely. They saw Ray as a liability on defense, and Presti demanded that defense be a top priority. Making that kind of change is vital, but not at all easy. I think we might find that to be the case here. And instead of thinking about emptying the cupboard bare, they really need to think about giving the coach the kinds of players he needs. Maybe Andrea ends up being seen as a defensive strength for this team. I'm not counting on that. And I think it would be a poor way to build a team if they feel it's necessary to start with putting square pegs into round holes. If it becomes clear that is the path they will take, then they'll lose me as a fan until they get a new GM.

There is no better way to get the players they need than getting multiple picks in a strong draft, and letting them grow together with a clean slate. That is the lesson OKC provided.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 02:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,530
Representing:
Default

imo, they've traded allen because he was getting old + he wouldn't have wanted to remain there anyway. Most stars don't want to stick through rebuilding, especially towards the end of their careers when they're in win-now mode.

I don't think we need to trade Bargnani regardless of his performance. If he shows a marked improvement in defense over the course of the season and he's willing to stay on a losing franchise for 2-3 years more, he's a keeper.

Of course, if we get a really good offer, like a top 3 pick or something like that, we should consider it. But we're not getting that, because teams with top 3 picks are rarely looking for veteran talent in trades. Short of a fringe playoff team striking big in the lottery, it's not happening.

And frankly, Seattle's trade didn't work out all that great for them, I wonder how good would they be now if they had ray allen instead of green/perkins.
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 02:55 PM   #25 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,530
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
You're saying Andrea couldn't garner a fairly decent pick?
define decent, is a #10 decent? Personally, I wouldn't trade him for that (if he continues to improve his defense). It's almost guaranteed that a #10 won't net you a better player. I'd rather keep andrea for another year or two until the core is finalized and then decide if I want to keep him or trade him for another veteran to fill a bigger need etc.
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 03:05 PM   #26 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,494
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
define decent, is a #10 decent? Personally, I wouldn't trade him for that (if he continues to improve his defense). It's almost guaranteed that a #10 won't net you a better player. I'd rather keep andrea for another year or two until the core is finalized and then decide if I want to keep him or trade him for another veteran to fill a bigger need etc.
Andrea would get you much more than a #10 overall pick.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 03:12 PM   #27 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,494
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
imo, they've traded allen because he was getting old + he wouldn't have wanted to remain there anyway. Most stars don't want to stick through rebuilding, especially towards the end of their careers when they're in win-now mode.

I don't think we need to trade Bargnani regardless of his performance. If he shows a marked improvement in defense over the course of the season and he's willing to stay on a losing franchise for 2-3 years more, he's a keeper.

Of course, if we get a really good offer, like a top 3 pick or something like that, we should consider it. But we're not getting that, because teams with top 3 picks are rarely looking for veteran talent in trades. Short of a fringe playoff team striking big in the lottery, it's not happening.

And frankly, Seattle's trade didn't work out all that great for them, I wonder how good would they be now if they had ray allen instead of green/perkins.
As a huge Raptor fan and a major Bargnani supporter, I'll say this: If JV comes over and shows that he is still 3 years away from breaking out and unless they luck out into a top 3 pick, this team needs to trade Bargnani cause beyond Barbosa and Calderon the team lacks high-end talent. It can be argued that both Jose and Leandro are not high-end talent but they do have certain skills that are of a very high caliber and aren't easily attainable. The rest have shown that they are years away from really maximizing their skillset. Love Amir too, but he's a very solid starter at best.

It blows my mind watching this team without AB, how incredibly awful they are. Sad really. In years past they had more talent, though still remained mediocre..... we need a game-breaker to compliment AB.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 03:13 PM   #28 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,298
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
imo, they've traded allen because he was getting old + he wouldn't have wanted to remain there anyway. Most stars don't want to stick through rebuilding, especially towards the end of their careers when they're in win-now mode.

I don't think we need to trade Bargnani regardless of his performance. If he shows a marked improvement in defense over the course of the season and he's willing to stay on a losing franchise for 2-3 years more, he's a keeper.

Of course, if we get a really good offer, like a top 3 pick or something like that, we should consider it. But we're not getting that, because teams with top 3 picks are rarely looking for veteran talent in trades. Short of a fringe playoff team striking big in the lottery, it's not happening.

And frankly, Seattle's trade didn't work out all that great for them, I wonder how good would they be now if they had ray allen instead of green/perkins.
Point taken about how it worked it, although Perkins is a pretty good asset for them, as was Green. And that is the kind of decent pick I would hope they would look at. Nothing is guaranteed, but if they can get a guy that was as coveted as Green was (and who Boston still liked as late as last year) then it would be a good move. And West was and is nothing to spit at.

As to your opinion on why Ray was moved - here's what they said at the time
Sonics' Allen traded to Celts for Wally, West & Green - NBA - ESPN
Quote:
"You're always listening when you come into a situation like this. You don't wake up one day and look to move a player like a Ray Allen," said new Sonics' general manager Sam Presti. "Someone has to come get them and Boston did that here."

Allen will take his offensive prowess, pure shot and seven All-Star appearances to Boston and join with Paul Pierce. The move should quiet Pierce's comments, voiced several times, about being dissatisfied with the youth movement that could keep Boston from contending during his career.

But for all his talent scoring the ball, Allen was a defensive liability.Since his arrival on June 7 as the youngest GM in the NBA, Presti has constantly reiterated his desire to build a foundation based on defense.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 04:08 PM   #29 (permalink)
Jimmy Butler IS The Phantom Menace.

Lackey
 
Ammo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Mighty North Tundra
Posts: 3,606
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
In the case of the Sonics at the time, they made the move to clean the slate and help change the culture completely. They saw Ray as a liability on defense, and Presti demanded that defense be a top priority. Making that kind of change is vital, but not at all easy. I think we might find that to be the case here. And instead of thinking about emptying the cupboard bare, they really need to think about giving the coach the kinds of players he needs. Maybe Andrea ends up being seen as a defensive strength for this team. I'm not counting on that. And I think it would be a poor way to build a team if they feel it's necessary to start with putting square pegs into round holes. If it becomes clear that is the path they will take, then they'll lose me as a fan until they get a new GM.

There is no better way to get the players they need than getting multiple picks in a strong draft, and letting them grow together with a clean slate. That is the lesson OKC provided.
I get all that, but if you need more proof that Bargnani is not going anywhere, I think one reason they brought in Casey is he was instrumental as a Dirk handler. And in a year, with no training camp, they've shown that they can change their defensive philosophy here.

They are putting in the discovery time for 2 seasons now. If they would have cleaned house when Bosh left, maybe. To me, too much to say we have holes on the team, so create more and let's draft and fill every hole with relative unknowns. Bargnani has his issues, but I wouldn't put him in the black hole category in the right system.
Patrick O'Bryant and Adam Morrison could well be hiding in the weeds. Bargnani is not Dirk, but we're pretty close to knowing what he is and he does have a unique skill set. I wouldn't trade him for that much more uncertainty any more than I'd trade Demar for a projeted 12th pick.
Ammo is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 05:55 PM   #30 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,468
Representing:
Default

The whole system under colonangelow is a failed one. It's been broken since the day he undermined Mitchell through the media and he as gm, gave Bargs more minutes. Only Yes Men since. Ugly.
bjjs is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 08:03 PM   #31 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,298
Representing:
Default

I think if you can get multiple lottery picks you get more certainty, not less. Bargnani, like Ray, though known quantities, are not going to get you past a certain ceiling unless you fill those holes with scraps fom elsewhere and start trying to change roles for various people. They need to do two things - find a player that can make an impact through entire games one way or another, and find a couple of vets that can do the same to a lesser extent so that a true identity can be established. With multiple picks there is a better chance of getting the first job done. Then they can allow all the rest of the young talent to fall into place organically and go from there. Just sitting on a player that you know can impact one aspect of the game, rarely for entire games, and never for a full season, doesn't seem all that wise.

Last edited by LX; 01-22-2012 at 08:07 PM.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2012, 01:04 AM   #32 (permalink)
Jimmy Butler IS The Phantom Menace.

Lackey
 
Ammo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Mighty North Tundra
Posts: 3,606
Representing:
Default

Raps nation is exhausted. The tank hull's pierced, the turret's bent, and it's coming off its tracks. Not saying it's the only reason to keep Bargnani, but I think most fans, especially seeing what Caseys sytem can do would be willing to have him as a good 3rd option.

I believe with a strong centre and a couple of capable threats with him instead of scrubs he'll be a serious problem for other teams. Worse case, he's entirly moveable later.
Ammo is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2012, 06:18 PM   #33 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Raptor Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 398
Representing:
Default

WTF DON'T TRADE Bargs HE'S THE LEAST OF OUR PROBLEMS!!!
ollyaaa is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24