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View Poll Results: who do you want?
Dragic 10 15.87%
Lowry 18 28.57%
Nash 19 30.16%
Lin 6 9.52%
Calderon 4 6.35%
Other 6 9.52%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-29-2012, 10:28 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EggsToTheBBQ View Post
I don't think that Kyle Lowry will do well with the Raptors.

The way you guys are talking about him you'd think he was an all star.

He's barely average for his position, and will probably never be anything more than he already is.
barely average? one of the best defensive pg in the nba is barely average?
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:38 AM   #62 (permalink)
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barely average? one of the best defensive pg in the nba is barely average?
I've addressed that myth already. Lowry is average defensively.

On offense he is efficient, but low volume (has never averaged more than 15 points per game). It is yet to be seen if he can sustain his 3 point shooting from the last couple of years, or if he will regress to what he was shooting previous.

Also, there's the issue of his injury history.

I'm not saying that he's a bad option, but he's not the PG Jesus either. You guys are getting carried away.

If I were BC I would prefer trading for another pick and getting Lillard/Marshall instead of trading for Lowry. I would also prefer keeping Jose for another year.

Last edited by EggsToTheBBQ; 05-29-2012 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:40 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EggsToTheBBQ View Post
Lin had a defensive rating this year of 101 (ranking #90 out of all 478 NBA players), and last year 103 (#58/452).

Lowry had a defensive rating this year of 104(#191/478), last year 110 (#315/478), and the year before 109 (#267/442). Previously Lowry has had poor defensive ratings also. This year was a career year for him defensively.

In steals per 36 minutes, Lowry is similarly much weaker than Lin.

I don't know where you guys are getting that Lowry is good defensively, because the numbers really don't back it up.

On the other hand, how do you think Lin has been able to get looks from NBA teams without being an especially good shooter, or really effective off the dribble? (Both areas saw huge improvements this year).

It's because he plays exceptional defense!

In fact, I'd argue that one of the reasons why the Knicks' winning streak happened was because teams were trying to go after Lin on defense. He's basically a rookie, but he's a strong defender for his position. So, opposing point guards were putting up good numbers, but they weren't doing it efficiently.
Well, looking at DRTG is very much influenced by the team defense as well - the same player playing for the Celts versus playing for the Raps in 2010-11 will have very different individual DRTG's just because of the team effect.

The NYK had a team DRTG of 101.0, so Lin's 101 is pretty average for that team. The Rockets had a DRTG of 105.2, so Lowry's 104 is more impressive in that regard. Now, there is some cause and effect here, but each player is only 1 piece in generating that team defensive rating.

Another thing to look at is the player's impact on the team when they step on or off the floor. This depends on their backups as well, but it is another piece of the puzzle. Lin improved his team's defense by about 2.1 points per 100 possessions. Lowry improved his team's defense by about 1.9 points per 100 possessions. So in this case they seem very comparable.

Looking purely at what they hold their matchups to is another way to try to evaluate defense. Lin holds his opponents to an eFG% of .492, 5.7 assists per 36, and a PER of 16.9. Lowry holds his opponents to an eFG% of .468, 7.1 assists per 36, and a PER of 15.7. Again, you have to apply the team impact to this case - the Knicks hold their opponents to a .485 eFG% and 18.9 assists per game; Houston to a .490 eFG% and 20.0 assist per game - so Lowry seems to do at least a somewhat better job of holding his opponents' performances in check.

As for steals, Lowry has a steal rate of 2.5%, and Lin's is 3.0% - somewhat lower, but not "much weaker."
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:40 AM   #64 (permalink)
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barely average? one of the best defensive pg in the nba is barely average?
Statistically Dragic is the better defender according to 82games.com. However, that can be misleading cause with Lowry starting the Rockets have a better winning percentage.
PoachedEggs tends to get caught up in stats neglecting other factors.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:42 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Uh oh, head to head with stats with DanH and Eggs? Exciiiiiiting........
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:46 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Uh oh, head to head with stats with DanH and Eggs? Exciiiiiiting........
DanH basically just backed me up.

Go through the posts an you'll see people calling Lin a poor defender and Lowry one of the best in the game. That's just not true, not even close.

Also, DanH only looked at Lowry's defensive performance for this, his career year, in which he only played 47 games.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:47 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Statistically Dragic is the better defender according to 82games.com. However, that can be misleading cause with Lowry starting the Rockets have a better winning percentage.
PoachedEggs tends to get caught up in stats neglecting other factors.
Stats, misleading.......THE HELL YOU SAY!
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:58 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EggsToTheBBQ View Post
DanH basically just backed me up.

Go through the posts an you'll see people calling Lin a poor defender and Lowry one of the best in the game. That's just not true, not even close.

Also, DanH only looked at Lowry's defensive performance for this, his career year, in which he only played 47 games.
Yeah, Lowry and Lin have both proven to be solid defenders - although Lowry has been solid for a much larger sample size, they are still very comparable in that area - with Lowry having a bit of an edge, but it is not lopsided by any means.

Lowry is also a slightly better rebounder and turns the ball over a lot less, but is less of a pass-first PG as well. Using WS/48, Lin's season this year is very comparable to Lowry's past 4 years, with only Lowry's most recent being noticeable better.

Of course, I didn't vote for either of them.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:52 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Again... I'd be happy to land either player TBH.

I absolutely agree that Lin is getting a raw deal when people talk about his D.... he was fine considering this was pretty much his 1st year (better than fine actually).

I still think that Lowry excels on that end though. Over the years when I've watched him I've always come away impressed with his ferocity on that end. Guy's a little pit bull.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:52 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Stats, misleading.......THE HELL YOU SAY!
lol, I dont know any euro PG's that are good defenders, I'm gonna stick to that until someone proves me wrong
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:22 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Lowry or Nash.

Nash would bring fans. Lowry is a centerpiece and with him I actually believe we could make a run into the playoffs with a few other pieces. Don't think Nash will do it.
He wants a good shot at a title, raps are a very long shot.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:32 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Lowry isn't a huge upgrade over Calderon, and Bayless has been very good, so I doubt he would change the Raptors' fortunes much for next year.

In the long term the Raptors need a PG to replace Calderon, but in the short term there are much bigger issues to address.

The starting SF spot is open, the starting SG needs to improve, the starting PF needs to avoid injury and be consistent, and the starting C is pretty much unknown (is JV ready to start?), so the Raptors arguably have bigger issues at every other position.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:38 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Stats, misleading.......THE HELL YOU SAY!
C'mon...5 years of improved stats and observed progress of Lin is not misleading. There....THE HELL I SAID
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:41 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Lowry isn't a huge upgrade over Calderon, and Bayless has been very good, so I doubt he would change the Raptors' fortunes much for next year.

In the long term the Raptors need a PG to replace Calderon, but in the short term there are much bigger issues to address.

The starting SF spot is open, the starting SG needs to improve, the starting PF needs to avoid injury and be consistent, and the starting C is pretty much unknown (is JV ready to start?), so the Raptors arguably have bigger issues at every other position.
Um, yes he is defensively....yep I said it, he is. Bayless is not as good as JC but then they are 2 totally different types of pg's.

I completely agree that SF is the real issue that needs to be addressed. It's difficult to get an accurate read on the other players till that's addressed.

As for DanH he just says it more concise and precise than poachedeggs

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Old 05-29-2012, 01:43 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Lowry or Nash.

Nash would bring fans. Lowry is a centerpiece and with him I actually believe we could make a run into the playoffs with a few other pieces. Don't think Nash will do it.
He wants a good shot at a title, raps are a very long shot.
You say that yet he has openly stated that he doesn't.

Nash is the last thing this team needs.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:51 PM   #76 (permalink)
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You say that yet he has openly stated that he doesn't.

Nash is the last thing this team needs.
Every team would be better with Nash.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:53 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Defensively he's not as good, but on offense JC is better than Lowry, though he should probably shoot more.

Calderon was the best player on the team last year. I really don't think that upgrading the best player on the team should be the highest priority.

We might have long term solutions at SG (DD), PF (ED/AB) and C (JV), but we're far from sure in all cases.

Short term we need a C so JV isn't the only viable option there from day 1.

We have some depth issues in the back court, so JB needs to be re-signed, or replaced.

The logjam needs to be resolved at PF, right now it looks like Amir is the odd man out.

We have two back up SFs (LK, JJ), and no starter, so one of those guys has to go and we need someone to start (hopefully we get that through the draft).

I'd say those are all more pressing than getting Lowry.

Last edited by EggsToTheBBQ; 05-29-2012 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:58 PM   #78 (permalink)
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How about this? Keep Calderon for at least half of the next season to measure other roster changes.
If you change 3 out 5 starters, it won't be easy to tell, how much the additions improve the team individually.

Last edited by moujik; 05-29-2012 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:00 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Every team would be better with Nash.

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Old 05-29-2012, 02:01 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Lowry isn't a huge upgrade over Calderon, and Bayless has been very good, so I doubt he would change the Raptors' fortunes much for next year.
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