Stein: Raps to replace BC with Embry/Raps deny report - Page 7
Old 04-23-2011, 07:33 PM   #121 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

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it could get a hell of a lot worse.
it could become hell, let alone hell of a lot worse
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Old 04-23-2011, 07:35 PM   #122 (permalink)
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lol this franchise is doomed forever.
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Old 04-23-2011, 07:58 PM   #123 (permalink)
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lol this franchise is doomed forever.
Its too early to say that, but some key moves this off-season will certainly determine that validity of that statement.
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Old 04-24-2011, 12:25 AM   #124 (permalink)
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its hard when you have to basically build your team off drafting alone and when you start getting "good" enough the players ditch the team
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Old 04-24-2011, 10:59 AM   #125 (permalink)
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its hard when you have to basically build your team off drafting alone and when you start getting "good" enough the players ditch the team
Unless, of course you spend some of your profit. Then more often than not, you can add winning more and atracting players who want to win to your organization.

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Old 04-24-2011, 11:25 AM   #126 (permalink)
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Unless, of course you spend some of your profit. Then more often than not, you can add winning more and atracting players who want to win to your organization.

WHAT??? no way!!!!
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Old 04-24-2011, 12:12 PM   #127 (permalink)
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I'm still confused as to why some people are willing jump off of a cliff if BC isn't re-signed.... esp. considering the fact that we won 22 friggin' games this year and lost our only legit star (for nothing) last off-season.

How much worse do people think it's going to get?
It's scary. BC is some sort of puppet-master. He has some sort of mind mold on Raptors nation, emitted through Raps TV and a variety of Raptor websites.

It makes absolutely no sense.

1. He gets paid a lot.

2. The team loses more and more games each year.

3. Yet he is "elite" and "irreplaceable".

Maybe I'm just an idiot for thinking Collangelo is just a lucky dude who had a farther as an NBA owner. He's got an MBA, that's awesome.

I'm just really mystified as to why Collangelo is irreplaceable. It has to be mass mind control. He isn't building a spacecraft capable of traveling at light speed. He's managing a flipping basketball team and he has been unable to get the job done.
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Old 04-24-2011, 12:35 PM   #128 (permalink)
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that was a pretty sweet whitewashing of the opinions as to why he should stay bjjs.

his contract size is irrelevant if ownership is willing to pay it. it does not count against cap, tax or anything like that.

he is not irreplaceable, but there is a pretty wide gulf between 'irreplaceable' and 'should stay'.

we are a franchise that spent the last 3-4 years trying to build around a single player that is now gone. in doing so we went through a revolving door of players. many (most) of us agreed with the bulk of those moves at the time. now that he is gone, a direction has been pretty clearly established. although we need some new players in the offseason, a core is beginning to stabilize. having a front office that remains stable through so much change, and through a possible ownership change, gives at least one credible reason for players around the league not to think of us as completely in tatters. whether or not you think he's done a good job, he seems to be widely heralded around the league. having that stability and a person at the helm that has quality contacts with players and gm's is an asset, and this franchise is short of assets.

you may not agree that this is an asset, but don't try to put off this argument as if those of us who believe it are morons who can't put two thoughts together. you can exaggerate the 'irreplaceable' point and underestimate the value of contacts around the league, but it doesn't necessarily make you right and me a victim of mond control.
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Old 04-24-2011, 12:53 PM   #129 (permalink)
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IMO players probably take more away from the way Collangelo bad mouthed his former players through the media for leaving in free agency or after being traded away. The way he forced his coach's hand in giving playing time to a certain player. As a player, those would raise big red flags for me.


The mere fact that he was here last year and the year before, although definitely a pro for keeping Collangelo, won't be or shouldn't be the reason that players from other teams will flock to Toronto, nor should it be the reason ownership keeps him around.

His contacts around the league are irrelevant because we don't know what they are. Any candidate who acquired a GM position in the NBA will have contacts around the league. Not only would it be a prerequisite, but contacts would develop pretty quickly in that position.

Ownership would be dropping the ball by not exploring other candidates and opportunities.

And the price tag is definitely a factor when the asset isn't performing.

Collanglo is just one of many many assets. Again, everyone including yourself makes him out to be more than what he is. As though a change in ownership would be so chaotic that it would be necessary to keep the golden boy around to make it all OK. All hail B.C.

Maybe we would actually see some greatness sprout on the court amongst a weak front office. Their wouldn't be all this pressure to see players keep their value by getting undeserved playing time.

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Old 04-24-2011, 01:05 PM   #130 (permalink)
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what bugs me is that BC doesn't make anything ok - he makes things look to be ok, and in that respect he serves MLSE very well. And MLSE in turn brings out his worst aspects in that regard. I admit that I agreed with much of what he did. He sold it well and I always thought each move was part of a bigger plan. Eventually I failed to see where there was any plan. He is very good at making a team just good enough, at least on paper, from year to year. I'm pretty tired of that approach. Of course that has changed recently, and if MLSE is gone I would have some interest to see if he could continue along with a rebuild plan, but I would not expect anything like I did before.
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Old 04-24-2011, 02:30 PM   #131 (permalink)
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IMO players probably take more away from the way Collangelo bad mouthed his former players through the media for leaving in free agency or after being traded away. The way he forced his coach's hand in giving playing time to a certain player. As a player, those would raise big red flags for me.


The mere fact that he was here last year and the year before, although definitely a pro for keeping Collangelo, won't be or shouldn't be the reason that players from other teams will flock to Toronto, nor should it be the reason ownership keeps him around.

His contacts around the league are irrelevant because we don't know what they are. Any candidate who acquired a GM position in the NBA will have contacts around the league. Not only would it be a prerequisite, but contacts would develop pretty quickly in that position.

Ownership would be dropping the ball by not exploring other candidates and opportunities.

And the price tag is definitely a factor when the asset isn't performing.

Collanglo is just one of many many assets. Again, everyone including yourself makes him out to be more than what he is. As though a change in ownership would be so chaotic that it would be necessary to keep the golden boy around to make it all OK. All hail B.C.

Maybe we would actually see some greatness sprout on the court amongst a weak front office. Their wouldn't be all this pressure to see players keep their value by getting undeserved playing time.
who is saying 'all hail bc', except you in putting those words in the mouths of others? i'm saying i don't see any credible alternatives, and it makes sense to keep him, and you are painting that as some kind of hero worship. don't you see a wide gap between what i am saying and what you are insisting that i am saying?
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Old 04-24-2011, 02:53 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Unless, of course you spend some of your profit. Then more often than not, you can add winning more and atracting players who want to win to your organization.

that won't do much because there's always another team bidding against us for a player and that player will always choose the other team
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Old 04-24-2011, 02:55 PM   #133 (permalink)
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that won't do much because there's always another team bidding against us for a player and that player will always choose the other team
Way to see the glass half empty. Hate to break it to you, but people actually like playing on this team.. at least when we're winning.
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Old 04-24-2011, 02:59 PM   #134 (permalink)
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Way to see the glass half empty. Hate to break it to you, but people actually like playing on this team.. at least when we're winning.
nobody said the players on this team don't like player here, but they have to get here first
nobody said this was a bad place to play, but players all still have preferences that aren't here
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Old 04-24-2011, 03:06 PM   #135 (permalink)
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that won't do much because there's always another team bidding against us for a player and that player will always choose the other team
We've never kept a core, developed and spent long enough to find out.

They flip-flop and start over with new management and coaches over and over. Don't forget that the 2 biggest stars we've had re-signed here because they thought we were headed in the right direction. We have also had players who did not want to leave when they were traded.

Camby was pissed when he was traded, Villanueva said he wanted to stay here for his career, Mo-Pete did not want to go. And I do believe Vince wanted to be a Raptor for life. And those are just the ones we know about.

There is only so much money to go around. Some teams don't have it. My point is that we are a big market and spending with other big market teasm, because we can afford it, will help us level the NBA Siberia disadvantage.

We don't have less finances, we don't have fewer fans in the seats, we don't have less of a population, so why take less to build with? And why ask any management to start out admittedly handicapped and then wonder why you can't keep up with L.A., Orlando, Chicago, Dallas, Boston, NY, etc. You are asking them to gamble and then wonder why you can come up "snake eyes".
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Old 04-24-2011, 03:24 PM   #136 (permalink)
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nice post Ammo. MLSE has just gotten in the way, even when there has been some success. I really would feel positive about the future prospects of this team with new ownership.

You look at elite teams and you will see not just the players required to get somewhere, and not just an excellent coach, but also a GM and ownership all on the same page and providing that sense of direction long-term. The teams that take steps backwards and have trouble taking that biggest step forward to the elite level, usually do not have what it takes from the top-down to allow greatness to develop from the bottom-up.
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Old 04-24-2011, 08:27 PM   #137 (permalink)
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who is saying 'all hail bc', except you in putting those words in the mouths of others? i'm saying i don't see any credible alternatives, and it makes sense to keep him, and you are painting that as some kind of hero worship. don't you see a wide gap between what i am saying and what you are insisting that i am saying?
Donnie Walsh's contract is up at the end of the season isn't it?

What about Steve Kerr, who did a very good job of putting together a winner in PHX?

The guy in POR? Pritchard?

You may not like them but I'd say that there are DEFINITELY alternatives out there at the moment.

And again.... how much worse do you think we're going to get? You said "it could get a hell of a lot worse" but that's about as vague as you can possibly be.

Let's be real here... ANY new GM that comes in isn't going to trade Davis and DD... he's going to BUILD on those talents... the same way that BC is going to try to do.

All I've been hearing is that we should keep BC because "he has a plan and needs to be given the time to see it through".

Really?

I could have sworn that his plan was "PHX East Euroball" which failed miserably. Any subsequent "plan" that he's developed has simply been due to the fact that we lost Bosh and the team (by default) needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

I'm with bjjs and LX here... I just don't see what BC possesses that's being deemed "irreplaceable".
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Old 04-24-2011, 08:34 PM   #138 (permalink)
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donnie walsh is a disaster, and the knicks are just about the last team in the world i would want to model the raps after. i thought kerr was doing what jvg is doing - happy with his broadcast career and not really interested in getting back into the front office unless a really sweet deal came along. i could be wrong about that, but i remember reading that somewhere...

as to pritchard - i would take him instead of colangelo. that's one credible alternative. but i wouldn't get rid of colangelo unless i was sure pritchard or someone of his calibre was ready to sign.

i maintain that you don't just axe a respected guy in the middle of a rebuild without having a very clear plan in mind as to how to replace him with someone that is not just learning how to do the job. as a raps fan, i am not willing to wait again for a new guy to change things to a new course and to get a feel for the team.

by 'hell of a lot worse' i mean that a guy could come in and start to chart a new course - yet again. we could be waiting years for another attempt, wasting the momentum we have now. we could also end up with a guy that wants to sign veterans and get wins asap, instead of building up a core. those are 2 possibilities that i think would be terrible and that we won't get with bc.

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Old 04-24-2011, 08:39 PM   #139 (permalink)
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donnie walsh is a disaster, and the knicks are just about the last team in the world i would want to model the raps after. i thought kerr was doing what jvg is doing - happy with his broadcast career and not really interested in getting back into the front office unless a really sweet deal came along. i could be wrong about that, but i remember reading that somewhere...

as to pritchard - i would take him instead of colangelo. that's one credible alternative. but i wouldn't get rid of colangelo unless i was sure pritchard or someone of his calibre was ready to sign.

i maintain that you don't just axe a respected guy in the middle of a rebuild without having a very clear plan in mind as to how to replace him with someone that is not just learning how to do the job. as a raps fan, i am not willing to wait again for a new guy to change things to a new course and to get a feel for the team.
How is Walsh "a disaster"?

Wasn't he the guy who pulled the Knicks out of the insane mess that Isaiah Thomas left them in? Seems like he did a fairly decent job to me.

I don't think that anyone wants to see "Joe Schmoe" walk in off the street and take control of the reigns... but the point that some of us are trying to make is that there ARE other people out there to look at. I'm sure that there are at least half a dozen others who we don't even know about.

Unfortunately, as long as ownership is "in limbo" it's going to be tough to get anyone else to even look at this job.
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Old 04-24-2011, 08:43 PM   #140 (permalink)
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by 'hell of a lot worse' i mean that a guy could come in and start to chart a new course - yet again. we could be waiting years for another attempt, wasting the momentum we have now. we could also end up with a guy that wants to sign veterans and get wins asap, instead of building up a core. those are 2 possibilities that i think would be terrible and that we won't get with bc.
Anything's possible I suppose.... but I'd contend that any GM worth his salt would know that THIS would NOT be the right way to go.

We currently have a promising big and a promising SG.... plus a top 5 pick. It's going to be pretty hard to screw that up.

If any trades are going to happen it's going to be Bargs, Jose, Kleiza.... players that are taking up a lot of cap space and are holdovers from "the old regime". THOSE are the guys that I could definitely see going.
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