Stein: Raps to replace BC with Embry/Raps deny report - Page 4
Old 04-21-2011, 03:26 PM   #61 (permalink)
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.... and?

so what has BC actually done that makes him so irreplaceable?


I think Toronto has is in a strange position within the league which may be disadvantageous, but that doesn't really have anything concrete to do with Colangelo coming back or not. In fact one could say that given those limitations Colangelo has shown he isn't capable of succeeding.
Some great posts from both fancy and LX.... this (the bold above) is the question that I've been wondering about for some time though.
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:35 PM   #62 (permalink)
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I think what BC had done is brought people who would have never even considered coming to Toronto to Toronto. We brought JO in, even though he was a bust, Under a lot of other GM's it would have been hard to do. Same with Shawn Marion, and when Hedo was considered the top free agent.

I think it's his credentials really, he built a great team in Phoenix, and was on the verge of building a great team in Toronto, until Bosh walked. If Bosh doesn't get injured last season and we slip into the playoffs, and Bosh stays we would have been a 4-5th place team. If Hedo would have lived up to his contract, we would have been a 5-6th type team. We have had a lot of bad luck, but I have faith that BC is building on something good. He's made a couple good under the radar deals last season to help the youth movement.

Bringing in Bayless and James Johnson, and drafted very well the last two seasons with Demar and Davis. I would have loved to have seen Bosh stay, and Demar playing were he's at now.

This guy has just had bad luck over the while. I want him to stay, so we can see what he's really made of.
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:47 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I think what BC had done is brought people who would have never even considered coming to Toronto to Toronto. We brought JO in, even though he was a bust, Under a lot of other GM's it would have been hard to do. Same with Shawn Marion, and when Hedo was considered the top free agent.

I think it's his credentials really, he built a great team in Phoenix, and was on the verge of building a great team in Toronto, until Bosh walked. If Bosh doesn't get injured last season and we slip into the playoffs, and Bosh stays we would have been a 4-5th place team. If Hedo would have lived up to his contract, we would have been a 5-6th type team. We have had a lot of bad luck, but I have faith that BC is building on something good. He's made a couple good under the radar deals last season to help the youth movement.

Bringing in Bayless and James Johnson, and drafted very well the last two seasons with Demar and Davis. I would have loved to have seen Bosh stay, and Demar playing were he's at now.

This guy has just had bad luck over the while. I want him to stay, so we can see what he's really made of.
I'm sorry... but I don't agree with this at all.

JO wasn't signed as a FA... he was acquired due to IND not wanting his mammoth contract on the books anymore.

Marion just wanted out of MIA where he simply never fit in. Not a hard sell there.

And Hedo? What "convincing" did BC do there? He just threw as much money at him as he could... and it bit us ALL in the ass.

I certainly won't argue with the SMALL deals that BC's made... those are really what he should hang his hat on here in Toronto... but the larger moves has been incredibly suspect.
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:48 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Some great posts from both fancy and LX.... this (the bold above) is the question that I've been wondering about for some time though.
I think it is more about who he is and less about what he has done.

It is his name that gives credibility to our franchise, not his accomplishments. (that isn't to say that a few accomplishments could have helped. lol)

Without BC, we have even less going for us than we do with him.

And given that I think he is just as capable as the next guy of making the right moves going forward, he needs to be re-signed asap.
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:52 PM   #65 (permalink)
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I think it is more about who he is and less about what he has done.

It is his name that gives credibility to our franchise, not his accomplishments. (that isn't to say that a few accomplishments could have helped. lol)

Without BC, we have even less going for us than we do with him.

And given that I think he is just as capable as the next guy of making the right moves going forward, he needs to be re-signed asap.
Really? I'm not convinced.... and I'm even less convinced if we have to shell out a fat contract to keep BC here.
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Old 04-21-2011, 04:31 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I'm sorry... but I don't agree with this at all.

JO wasn't signed as a FA... he was acquired due to IND not wanting his mammoth contract on the books anymore.

Marion just wanted out of MIA where he simply never fit in. Not a hard sell there.

And Hedo? What "convincing" did BC do there? He just threw as much money at him as he could... and it bit us ALL in the ass.

I certainly won't argue with the SMALL deals that BC's made... those are really what he should hang his hat on here in Toronto... but the larger moves has been incredibly suspect.
First of all.. the J.O trade was a blockbuster deal. Everyone predicted the Raptors to be a top contender.. but that flopped. Marion was traded here because J.O did not work out. Hedo got signed here because he was supposedly a great player. No one knew he'd turn into an unmotivated sloth, everyone was happy when Hedo was signed...

In essence all the deals/signings were good, they just didn't work out. With Bosh gone we don't need to go through the trial and errors to see what works, because nothing ever worked.
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Old 04-21-2011, 04:32 PM   #67 (permalink)
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im starting to wonder if the early success is what is dooming colangelo
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Old 04-21-2011, 05:36 PM   #68 (permalink)
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I'm sorry... but I don't agree with this at all.

JO wasn't signed as a FA... he was acquired due to IND not wanting his mammoth contract on the books anymore.

Marion just wanted out of MIA where he simply never fit in. Not a hard sell there.

And Hedo? What "convincing" did BC do there? He just threw as much money at him as he could... and it bit us ALL in the ass.

I certainly won't argue with the SMALL deals that BC's made... those are really what he should hang his hat on here in Toronto... but the larger moves has been incredibly suspect.
I disagree with you 100%. If JO or Marion wanted traded here at this point, I bet that they would opt not to play and get bought out. No other GM we've had would have had the balls to make a move like these. When did Marion want out of Miami? He was doing fine there, it was Miami who wanted to change it up.

Hedo had just led Orlando in the playoffs, every team wanted him.. Remember how we screwed Portland over and signed him last minute, their was obviously come convincing there.


Fact is BC makes moves, and I'd argue if Bosh was still here we'd be 4-5 in the East, without a doubt. Especially the move hes making now we are looking good for the future.
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:31 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Really? I'm not convinced.... and I'm even less convinced if we have to shell out a fat contract to keep BC here.
If Colangelo leaves and we bring in Embry as the interim GM, Embry will be unwilling, or unable, to spend money because he wouldn't want to lose the roster flexibility for the next GM. The next GM likely won't be hired during the lockout because MLSE will see it as a waste of money to pay someone to sit around until the lockout is over.

The last lockout was settled and the season started in about 3 weeks, so we likely will go into next season with Embry as our GM. Next season will be a complete write-off since we won't be a player on the free-agent market and any trade would be to improve roster flexibility for the next GM. So it will be another year of tanking.

Also, if Colangelo leaves Triano will likely be leaving as well. Then when a new full-time GM is hired he'll likely want his own coaching staff in place. All this turnover on a young team just doesn't make sense. This is a recipe for another 2 or more seasons of losing which will lead to Demar and Ed Davis leaving and setting us even further back.

If we didn't want to keep Colangelo, we should have made this decision right after Bosh left. If you allow a GM to start a rebuild you HAVE to let him finish it, you can't have someone start a rebuild and then have another GM come in and restart the rebuild. That is why we have to keep Colangelo.

Personally I am sick of losing, and finally seeing the team go through a proper rebuild only to have it derailed by incompetent ownership is frustrating.
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Old 04-21-2011, 08:01 PM   #70 (permalink)
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If Colangelo leaves and we bring in Embry as the interim GM, Embry will be unwilling, or unable, to spend money because he wouldn't want to lose the roster flexibility for the next GM. The next GM likely won't be hired during the lockout because MLSE will see it as a waste of money to pay someone to sit around until the lockout is over.

The last lockout was settled and the season started in about 3 weeks, so we likely will go into next season with Embry as our GM. Next season will be a complete write-off since we won't be a player on the free-agent market and any trade would be to improve roster flexibility for the next GM. So it will be another year of tanking.

Also, if Colangelo leaves Triano will likely be leaving as well. Then when a new full-time GM is hired he'll likely want his own coaching staff in place. All this turnover on a young team just doesn't make sense. This is a recipe for another 2 or more seasons of losing which will lead to Demar and Ed Davis leaving and setting us even further back.

If we didn't want to keep Colangelo, we should have made this decision right after Bosh left. If you allow a GM to start a rebuild you HAVE to let him finish it, you can't have someone start a rebuild and then have another GM come in and restart the rebuild. That is why we have to keep Colangelo.

Personally I am sick of losing, and finally seeing the team go through a proper rebuild only to have it derailed by incompetent ownership is frustrating.
I like the way you put it.

We can make educated assumptions about what Colangelo did in the board room to piss people off, whether there are a few higher status and experienced GMs other than Colangelo just itching to come here and be told to shuffle the deck as long as you don't spend into tax while other big markets do? And we can also assume that the next set of owners are going to go ahead and get one of these GMs?

Well, then my educated guessing says that the current GM has told guys like Demar and Ed and Amir what the plan is and that they are on board with it(even mentioned by Demar in saying they just need to get through this year).
My educated guessing also says we are likely looking at a step back initially, followed by???....that new managment will need to acclimate themselves to quite a bit here....that there are not going to be 8 or 10 great GMs sitting around hoping Toronto calls when the work stoppage is over.

Also, the odds at getting an experienced GM with pull are 100% if Colangelo is signed and some percentage much less than that if they sit in a holding pattern with a 98 year old man.

Ah, never mind. Let's just get Dr. J as GM.
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Old 04-21-2011, 08:08 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I disagree with you 100%. If JO or Marion wanted traded here at this point, I bet that they would opt not to play and get bought out. No other GM we've had would have had the balls to make a move like these. When did Marion want out of Miami? He was doing fine there, it was Miami who wanted to change it up.

Hedo had just led Orlando in the playoffs, every team wanted him.. Remember how we screwed Portland over and signed him last minute, their was obviously come convincing there.


Fact is BC makes moves, and I'd argue if Bosh was still here we'd be 4-5 in the East, without a doubt. Especially the move hes making now we are looking good for the future.
BC had plenty of chances to be anything above shit with Bosh here, and failed miserably...
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Old 04-21-2011, 08:39 PM   #72 (permalink)
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What about in 2007? When the Raptors won the Atlantic division? People are oblivious and only want to see what they want to believe. A couple of bad season, His game plan would have worked for this season, if Bosh wouldn't have walked. Could you imagine DD were he is at now with Bosh, Andrea, Jose + Bayless and Ed Davis as his back up. We would have been looking pretty. BC gave us a couple of our best seasons in franchise history.
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Old 04-21-2011, 08:56 PM   #73 (permalink)
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BC had plenty of chances to be anything above shit with Bosh here, and failed miserably...
I'm not buying it. They have to spend the money. As I mentioned somewhere else before, 80% of the franchises would love to make Raptors profit. They did not need someone like Mark cuban as an owner who is even willing to lose money to win, they only needed to turn a couple of $4 million scrubs into a couple of $10 mil. players to be contenders. They still would have made more profit than half the teams. But they took the money instead.

Who exactly was another GM going to bring in? Chris Paul? If they won't spend, and free agents besides Fat-gulu won't come here, there's nothing left but wheeling and dealing to see what sticks. And that's Colangelo. He's the GM for the 4th biggest market in the league that won't spend like the other bigs do.
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Old 04-21-2011, 09:14 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Doug Smith is claiming that the Raptors are denying the reports of Embry potentially replacing Colangelo.

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On Thursday, team sources quickly refuted an online report that said the organization is ready to pass on the general manager’s duties to consultant Wayne Embry if the decision is made not to renew the contract of president and general manager Bryan Colangelo.

“People just try to find the logical speculation,” one team official said.

Colangelo’s contract expires June 30 and there has been no indication from Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment whether he’ll be retained or not. The Star’s Dave Feschuk has reported that Glen Silvestri, a representative of the Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan — 66 per cent owners of MLSE — is holding up the Colangelo decision, even as the pension fund seeks to sell off its interest in the organization.
http://www.thestar.com/sports/basket...cing-colangelo
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Old 04-21-2011, 09:34 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Really? I'm not convinced.... and I'm even less convinced if we have to shell out a fat contract to keep BC here.
Why? Who gives a shit how much BC makes, his salary doesn't count against the cap. I've never heard of a team being unable to spend on its roster because the GM's salary was eating up the budget.
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Old 04-21-2011, 09:36 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Why? Who gives a shit how much BC makes, his salary doesn't count against the cap.
Yeah, pretty much my thoughts on that as well. Who cares how much a GM or coach makes really. If the owners are rich enough to pay them wtf do i care.
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Old 04-21-2011, 09:39 PM   #77 (permalink)
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I'm not buying it. They have to spend the money. As I mentioned somewhere else before, 80% of the franchises would love to make Raptors profit. They did not need someone like Mark cuban as an owner who is even willing to lose money to win, they only needed to turn a couple of $4 million scrubs into a couple of $10 mil. players to be contenders. They still would have made more profit than half the teams. But they took the money instead.

Who exactly was another GM going to bring in? Chris Paul? If they won't spend, and free agents besides Fat-gulu won't come here, there's nothing left but wheeling and dealing to see what sticks. And that's Colangelo. He's the GM for the 4th biggest market in the league that won't spend like the other bigs do.
Don't worry, it won't take long before DD and Ed Davis are eating up most of the payroll.

We're a lucky draft pick and about a half decade of solid development away from having 3 max or near max salaries on the books.

Anyways, spending money just to keep up with the Joneses is a terrible idea. That's how a franchise digs its own grave. Remember Isiah's Knicks?

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Old 04-21-2011, 09:44 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Yeah, pretty much my thoughts on that as well. Who cares how much a GM or coach makes really. If the owners are rich enough to pay them wtf do i care.
Exactly. But to see fans with absolutely no vested interest in the owners' returns still form views on personnel based on salary is very illustrative however, in terms of giving you a sense of how important it probably is to the parties involved.
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Old 04-21-2011, 09:50 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Don't worry, it won't take long before DD and Ed Davis are eating up most of the payroll.

We're a lucky draft pick and about a half decade of solid development away from having 3 max or near max salaries on the books.

Anyways, spending money just to keep up with the Joneses is a terrible idea. That's how a franchise digs its own grave. Remember Isiah's Knicks?
Haaaaa! You picked 1 team with miscreants running it, why not pick all the teams who contend year after year and spend. Those citites are destinations for players.
Teams spend to keep their best players. It doesn't have to always be 20 mil per player unless it's Kobe. I can't say I'd be particularly disappointed though if they lucked in to 3 all-stars and were forced to pay them. All the Jonses are living on NBA street and NBA street made the rules. Hopefully they change some of them with a new CBA.
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Old 04-21-2011, 09:52 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Only 2 top teams were created around free agents. The Celtics and Heat.

Every other top team was put together through smart drafting and good trades.

The Raptors will assume a hefty salary when DD and Ed Davis need new contracts. There's no need to jump the gun and start spending now, especially not before the new CBA is worked out.

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