Something which really irks me.
Old 10-21-2008, 11:41 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Something which really irks me.

Why do the Raptors always feel that it is necessary to double team players on the perimeter with their big man (Bargnani, Humphries, etc.). The thing that irks me even more, the guys who they end up doubling half the time aren't even players to worry about.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:43 AM   #2 (permalink)
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What are everyone elses thoughts about the issue?
I thought this would generate a lot of discussion, because I'm curious as to if I'm wrong or right in this matter.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:50 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Are we talking about what we've been seeing in the pre-season or in past regular seasons (can't remember last season right now and can't think of any instances)?
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:55 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Last preseason it was the double in the post every game, and that carried through into the regular season.

This year its the double on the perimeter.

I fear its only a matter of time before JO has a beef with Sam.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:56 AM   #5 (permalink)
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i refuse to make a big deal out of things i've seen in pre-season just becuase it's really nothing more than a preparation for the real thing. You're always going to see teams run stuff that they aren't nessesarilly going to regularily do in real games. You're going to see odd player combinations too and possibly players playing weird positions.

If the regular season games show that the team is lost or whatever, i'll question things at that point.

Hell. i've only watches 1 game this preseason. and not even the whole one.
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:02 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fancylad View Post
i refuse to make a big deal out of things i've seen in pre-season just becuase it's really nothing more than a preparation for the real thing. You're always going to see teams run stuff that they aren't nessesarilly going to regularily do in real games. You're going to see odd player combinations too and possibly players playing weird positions.

If the regular season games show that the team is lost or whatever, i'll question things at that point.

Hell. i've only watches 1 game this preseason. and not even the whole one.
I do agree that its only preseason, however as I said earlier, last preseason it was the post double team that was worked on ans that carried on throughout the season. I fully expect to see come games 1,2,3,4 etc. the same defense that we are seing nowm and hear the same Sam excuse of "players need to try harder"
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I hate how they double the PG out at half. After that some guy is open and hits the shot which really pisses me off
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:45 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Welcome to Raptors basketball under Smitch.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:42 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I dont mind it if our rotations were quicker to the ball like the Celtics do it. Our main problem is after the trap, the guy who catches the first pass is wide open because whoever is supposed to go to him either doesnt know it or is slow, and when they finally get to him he just makes one more pass and that pass is the one that leads to the wide open 3.

If anyone has the JR Smith hilites from last game youll see what im talking about. It wasnt a pick and roll, but a postup for Patterson where we doubled and the same thing happened, so pretty much the same bad idea. Good defensive teams will force teams to make 3-4 passes/get a deflection during the sequence or a steal and make the last guy dribble or take a tough contested set shot, we're still a aways away from that.
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Old 10-23-2008, 08:28 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by thriller92 View Post
I dont mind it if our rotations were quicker to the ball like the Celtics do it. Our main problem is after the trap, the guy who catches the first pass is wide open because whoever is supposed to go to him either doesnt know it or is slow, and when they finally get to him he just makes one more pass and that pass is the one that leads to the wide open 3.

If anyone has the JR Smith hilites from last game youll see what im talking about. It wasnt a pick and roll, but a postup for Patterson where we doubled and the same thing happened, so pretty much the same bad idea. Good defensive teams will force teams to make 3-4 passes/get a deflection during the sequence or a steal and make the last guy dribble or take a tough contested set shot, we're still a aways away from that.
Celtics consist of smart, athletic players.

Raps have Joey, Hump, Jose, Kapono etc.

Either stupid or slow.
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:53 PM   #11 (permalink)
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They have done this last year too.
They just tend to double players at the most unnecessary times.
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:43 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I think they're intent in having a big come out and trap at the top is to stop dribble penetration, and having their guys get broken down, which has killed them in the past, and killed them during the preseason.
It may have worked a bit, but it's really a simple adjustment for the opposing team if you don't have guys that can rotate quick enough to cut off passing lanes.

Did the Raptors even try a match-up zone during the preseason?
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:41 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jumplvlan23 View Post
Why do the Raptors always feel that it is necessary to double team players on the perimeter with their big man (Bargnani, Humphries, etc.). The thing that irks me even more, the guys who they end up doubling half the time aren't even players to worry about.
This is a good observation. I don't think it's an intentional double team. What happens is that when the other team runs a pick 'n roll we tend to trap the guy with the ball for no reason. It can be a good strategy if its done well but usually the guard just splits the pressure and comes down the heart of our lane to wreak havoc.
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:43 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Arsenalist View Post
It can be a good strategy if its done well but usually the guard just splits the pressure and comes down the heart of our lane to wreak havoc.
That's exactly what happens and that's why I hate them doing this.
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:01 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I think it's very intentional though - because all our big men do it and do it the same way. And you can bet your house that we're going to do this in the regular season as well - why else we'd be doing it so much during pre-season, if not to practice it?

In a way, it's what Bosh did so well at the olympics, maybe Sam is trying to capitalize on that ...
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:47 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I remember 2 or 3(?) yrs ago we literally doubled everybody in the post. Ratliff, Kwame, Oberto. Either Smitch is out of his mind or he told the players to double the post when its the main option and they were so emotionally into the game they just doubled anyone who got the ball down there, but even then, it continuing to happen all game long after that is mindboggling. HEDGE like normal teams do.
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:58 PM   #17 (permalink)
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It's not like we have bad defenders on our team either.
Parker, Moon, Bosh, Oneal, Humphries, even Bargnani are all capable of playing good defense. 4 out of our 5 players in the starting lineup are actually really good individual defenders (calderon being the exception)

Last edited by jumplvlan23; 10-24-2008 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:18 PM   #18 (permalink)
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http://www.thestar.com/Sports/NBA/article/523543

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In one of this year's more noticeable alterations to the defensive principles that coach Sam Mitchell holds so near to his heart, the team's centres and power forwards are supposed to much more aggressively trap guards out on the perimeter, the hope being that they stall the offence rather that sit back and wait for opponents to get a running start at the basket.
You see - it's all part of a plan! Except that they can't even execute the trapping part yet and even if the guard doesn't split the trap, there is always a chance that a good player passes out of the trap fast enough to rotate the ball to an open man before the big recovers. I've never understood this approach, especially considering that they are trying to use it against the best ball-handlers/passers (guards). Trap big men with the ball, but lead guards?!
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
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what's even worse is that we got JO to patrol the paint, and now he's spending his time chasing iversons on the perimeter ... way to go to maximize your assets. I realize that JO will mostly play center, but at time he will be a PF, as it was in the pre-season.
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