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-   -   someone's gotta go. (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/someones-gotta-go-20731.html)

Ammo 07-05-2011 08:27 PM

someone's gotta go.
 
I don't care if it's too early to speculate who will be around next year because this topic is specifically about who I'm opening the door to walking away.

Someone's got to go.

There are going to be too many bigs who are good enough to get decent minutes in the NBA and I don't know how we can expect that none of them will become malcontents. Add to this that with so many young guys, they need playing time to develop.

There is already a logjam at power forward. Now Jonas and another centre will be coming to join the bigman convention.

Common sense says someone is out of here.

Bargnani says he wants to be here, whether you want him here or not.
Amir wants to be here.
Alabi? Like he has options?
Jonas is lucky to be here over other cities.
Reggie loves it here and wants to be here.
Dorsey? No, I didn't leave him out by mistake. Bye, Joey.
Free agent centre's attitude? Who knows.

I leave anyone out?

Oh, yeah. Ed Davis. At the risk of torches and pitchforks coming out all over this board, I think they should give him plenty of playing time....as a showcase for a spectacular return in a trade. I like his game, but I do not have a good feeling about him wanting to be here long term. This is a franchise that has lost and will lose again if a player forces their hand.

Remember, this is an "If I had to choose" scenario. If there's even a glimmer that he's not just biding his time here, I'd change my mind.

Blaze 07-05-2011 08:41 PM

Your not the only person to think this so this isn't just directed at you, but the fact that people want to get rid of our players because of fear that the player might want to leave is simply stupid. It is a possibility but to live in fear of it would leave us stuck in rebuild forever. Ed has some nice potential and your saying trade him in case he wants to leave. What would that give us back, either a veteran piece that is past his prime or another young piece or pick. If we get another veteran piece we have no possibility of a getting a star, if we get another young piece or draft pick were in the same situation as we are now with Ed. The player might develop into a star and want to leave. So what now, we trade the player for another young piece or veteran?

jeffb 07-05-2011 08:47 PM

Keep- Davis, Amir, Evans (1yr contract), Alabi

Dump- Bargnani, Dorsey


Add a top FA Center to that mix and i'm pretty happy.

Next season
Davis,Amir, Evans
Chandler :haha:, Evans, Alabi

2012-13
Davis,Amir, Kleiza
Chandler :haha:, Jonas, Alabi

Ammo 07-05-2011 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaze (Post 557530)
Your not the only person to think this so this isn't just directed at you, but the fact that people want to get rid of our players because of fear that the player might want to leave is simply stupid. It is a possibility but to live in fear of it would leave us stuck in rebuild forever. Ed has some nice potential and your saying trade him in case he wants to leave. What would that give us back, either a veteran piece that is past his prime or another young piece or pick. If we get another veteran piece we have no possibility of a getting a star, if we get another young piece or draft pick were in the same situation as we are now with Ed. The player might develop into a star and want to leave. So what now, we trade the player for another young piece or veteran?

Depends on the piece in return. Strictly hypothetical....Ed goes off for 13/10 with playing time. Is a trade that nets a 24 year old Rudy Gay all that bad?

FA Centre/Jonas
Bargnani/Amir
Gay/JJ
Derozan/Barbosa
Bayless/Calderon

Now Bargani's a PF, Amir's a PF, Ed's a PF. How is this kid gonna get time ultimately? Note that it is not please trade Ed because he seems disinterested, it is that a decision day may come an then what is your thought process?

carp 07-05-2011 08:51 PM

Davis could be a great trade chip to bring back an elite young piece at another position...... PF's are easier to come with, 7 footers are not. Amir is good enough as a third big if we bring in a C and Val will come over as our 4th big initially. Reggie is a stopgap. Davis could be the key to bringing in a young guard later on.

Ammo 07-05-2011 08:52 PM

Oh, and Bargnani is staying and he's your new starting power forward. So, work backwards from that.

jeffb 07-05-2011 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ammo (Post 557536)
Oh, and Bargnani is staying and he's your new starting power forward. So, work backwards from that.

:puke:

Superjudge 07-05-2011 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ammo (Post 557528)


Oh, yeah. Ed Davis. At the risk of torches and pitchforks coming out all over this board, I think they should give him plenty of playing time....

What are ya talking about man, Davis is solid! He should be starting if Bargnani doesn't plan on improving his intensity!

Ammo 07-05-2011 09:11 PM

Bargnani's going to put up his 20-something points at PF, and when he puts up 6 rebounds instead of 5.5, Ed will be watching from the bench. That's not good. Some point within then next, say....18 months they are going to have to make a move. Since BC and Gherardini are still here, Bargnani is too.

Metallikid 07-05-2011 10:17 PM

Current Forwards/Centres:

Ajinca
Alabi
Bargnani
Davis
Dorsey
Evans
Johnson
Valanciunas

Of these, one can reasonably expect four of them to play nearly, if not all, the minutes at PF and C. Going into the next season I see those bigs being Bargnani/Amir at PF and Davis/Alabi or a FA at C. This would leave room for two bench/garbage time bigs. If we do get a FA Centre to play behind Davis I would expect the bench warmers to be Alabi and Evans. If we don't sign anyone then I'd like to keep Evans and Ajinca.

More likely than not though it will be a strict rotation of Amir/Ed/Andrea with a 4th playing around 8-10 mins/game or less, putting Alabi in the D-League for large stretches and just keeping Reggie around for leadership and mentoring. :cookie:

jeffb 07-05-2011 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metallikid (Post 557569)
Current Forwards/Centres:

Ajinca
Alabi
Bargnani
Davis
Dorsey
Evans
Johnson
Valanciunas

Of these, one can reasonably expect four of them to play nearly, if not all, the minutes at PF and C. Going into the next season I see those bigs being Bargnani/Amir at PF and Davis/Alabi or a FA at C. This would leave room for two bench/garbage time bigs. If we do get a FA Centre to play behind Davis I would expect the bench warmers to be Alabi and Evans. If we don't sign anyone then I'd like to keep Evans and Ajinca.

More likely than not though it will be a strict rotation of Amir/Ed/Andrea with a 4th playing around 8-10 mins/game or less, putting Alabi in the D-League for large stretches and just keeping Reggie around for leadership and mentoring. :cookie:


See i can see

Bargnani/Davis/Amir
FA/Amir/Alabi

Casey said that Amir could play some minutes at Center. Now if Davis puts on 20lbs i can easily see him play some backup Center minutes before Amir as you put down. But ultimately imo, one of Amir/Davis/Bargnani should be gone. Sadly i doubt it'll be Bargnani. Maybe Amir or Davis is dealt and Evans is brought back and plays some backup Center position??

Bargnani/Davis?/Evans
FA/Evans/Alabi

Who knows at this point. It's hard to think of what BC is thinking.

carp 07-05-2011 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 557573)
See i can see

Bargnani/Davis/Amir
FA/Amir/Alabi

Casey said that Amir could play some minutes at Center. Now if Davis puts on 20lbs i can easily see him play some backup Center minutes before Amir as you put down. But ultimately imo, one of Amir/Davis/Bargnani should be gone. Sadly i doubt it'll be Bargnani. Maybe Amir or Davis is dealt and Evans is brought back and plays some backup Center position??

Bargnani/Davis?/Evans
FA/Evans/Alabi

Who knows at this point. It's hard to think of what BC is thinking.

Actually, it's easy to think what BC is thinking.... the last two drafts, take the best prospect available. He's been adding length and athleticism to this team, specifically 7' length.... he's going to eventually move amir or Davis, likely Davis as he's gonna bring us a piece that is a huge upgrade elsewhere.

No doubt his struggles to acquire a C have fueled his interest in drafting size and length.

jeffb 07-05-2011 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 557574)
Actually, it's easy to think what BC is thinking.... the last two drafts, take the best prospect available. He's been adding length and athleticism to this team, specifically 7' length.... he's going to eventually move amir or Davis, likely Davis as he's gonna bring us a piece that is a huge upgrade elsewhere.

No doubt his struggles to acquire a C have fueled his interest in drafting size and length.

Depends. What if Bargnani frustrates Casey to no end on the defensive end and with his lack of effort and BC says enough is enough? Bargnani i believe has one last chance and if he doesn't make the most of it he'll be the one moved which in sincerely hope is the case. I don't know if Davis or Amir is moved before they see if Bargnani can work in this new system.

carp 07-05-2011 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 557576)
Depends. What if Bargnani frustrates Casey to no end on the defensive end and with his lack of effort and BC says enough is enough? Bargnani i believe has one last chance and if he doesn't make the most of it he'll be the one moved which in sincerely hope is the case. I don't know if Davis or Amir is moved before they see if Bargnani can work in this new system.

That might happen, but to me that's the unlikely scenario. Too many people are looking at Bargnani hoping he's going to fail and be moved.... you have to remember they were all brutal defensively for long stretches and Casey has talked about several key issues that have long permeated Raptor culture.

jeffb 07-05-2011 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 557579)
That might happen, but to me that's the unlikely scenario. Too many people are looking at Bargnani hoping he's going to fail and be moved.... you have to remember they were all brutal defensively for long stretches and Casey has talked about several key issues that have long permeated Raptor culture.

True enough. But do you seriously think that if Bargs doesn't improve with his rebounding and his defense (especially his defense) and his effort that he won't eventually be moved? Look, if Bargnani can come in next season and give effort, and improve his D i have no major issue then in keeping him if coupled with a good defensive Center. But this will be his 6th season and if he won't play D for Casey he'll be moved imo.

Ammo 07-05-2011 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metallikid (Post 557569)
Current Forwards/Centres:

Ajinca
Alabi
Bargnani
Davis
Dorsey
Evans
Johnson
Valanciunas

Of these, one can reasonably expect four of them to play nearly, if not all, the minutes at PF and C. Going into the next season I see those bigs being Bargnani/Amir at PF and Davis/Alabi or a FA at C. This would leave room for two bench/garbage time bigs. If we do get a FA Centre to play behind Davis I would expect the bench warmers to be Alabi and Evans. If we don't sign anyone then I'd like to keep Evans and Ajinca.

More likely than not though it will be a strict rotation of Amir/Ed/Andrea with a 4th playing around 8-10 mins/game or less, putting Alabi in the D-League for large stretches and just keeping Reggie around for leadership and mentoring. :cookie:

Pretty sure BC said he wanted an anchor at centre, so probably not a back up player.

And Amir and Davis are the same kind of guy. So which of them is going to sit and watch when there is a log jam with Valunciunas also here playing and learning the NBA game?

carp 07-05-2011 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 557583)
True enough. But do you seriously think that if Bargs doesn't improve with his rebounding and his defense (especially his defense) and his effort that he won't eventually be moved? Look, if Bargnani can come in next season and give effort, and improve his D i have no major issue then in keeping him if coupled with a good defensive Center. But this will be his 6th season and if he won't play D for Casey he'll be moved imo.

I hope you're as consistent with your evaluation on the others not playing defense...... DD will be in his third year and doesn't defend well.

I do think Bargnani's rebounding will improve under Casey.... he's probably not going to be defending so much on the perimeter in zone as he was with Triano, though that is contingent on the others being able to keep guys in front of them (which most haven't been able to do often enough)

I think a tougher, more physical perimeter defense will make Bargnani's defense not stand out so much. I'm hopeful Casey can make the differences he's been promising.... otherwise we'll have wasted Bargnani's skillset too.

LX 07-05-2011 10:58 PM

Here's an idea. Go with however the new coach works it out, and not on who says they want to be here. If you want to be here, you fill your role properly within the coach's system and do what it takes to win games. If there is anyone that doesn't do enough to win games or fit into the system, then they will have to go, whether they like the cappuccino downtown or not. If this team starts looking at anything other than what it takes to in games, then anyone who has anything to offer is going to want to leave in short order, no m atter what they say now.

LX 07-05-2011 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 557534)
Davis could be a great trade chip to bring back an elite young piece at another position...... PF's are easier to come with, 7 footers are not. Amir is good enough as a third big if we bring in a C and Val will come over as our 4th big initially. Reggie is a stopgap. Davis could be the key to bringing in a young guard later on.

7-rooters that play like guards are extremely hard to come by, and not all that valuable if they are not going to play like 7-rooters. Bigs that have defensive instincts like Davis are not only rare, but the impact can be immeasurable. Let's just throw that away and wait another 16 years for a team that can get some stops.

Ammo 07-05-2011 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 557583)
True enough. But do you seriously think that if Bargs doesn't improve with his rebounding and his defense (especially his defense) and his effort that he won't eventually be moved? Look, if Bargnani can come in next season and give effort, and improve his D i have no major issue then in keeping him if coupled with a good defensive Center. But this will be his 6th season and if he won't play D for Casey he'll be moved imo.

With an "anchor" centre, Bargnani can be partially shielded from blatant defensive failure and fan criticism. I think they are married to the fact that he can't do certain things. They didn't come in and say Bargnani had better start behaving like a centre. 1. He's a PF now. 2. They decided they want to put him in a better position to succeed given his deficiencies.

That does not actually sound like a last chance. It sounds a lot closer to: We'll get you a battleship of a centre and you can float around on the perimeter on your jet ski.


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