someone's gotta go. - Page 2
Old 07-05-2011, 11:06 PM   #21 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,741
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
With an "anchor" centre, Bargnani can be partially shielded from blatant defensive failure and fan criticism. I think they are married to the fact that he can't do certain things. They didn't come in and say Bargnani had better start behaving like a centre. 1. He's a PF now. 2. They decided they want to put him in a better position to succeed given his deficiencies.

That does not actually sound like a last chance. It sounds a lot closer to: We'll get you a battleship of a centre and you can float around on the perimeter on your jet ski.
Oh good. I hope not or I'll stop watching. I like basketball too much.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 11:07 PM   #22 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 76,148
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I hope you're as consistent with your evaluation on the others not playing defense...... DD will be in his third year and doesn't defend well.

I do think Bargnani's rebounding will improve under Casey.... he's probably not going to be defending so much on the perimeter in zone as he was with Triano, though that is contingent on the others being able to keep guys in front of them (which most haven't been able to do often enough)

I think a tougher, more physical perimeter defense will make Bargnani's defense not stand out so much. I'm hopeful Casey can make the differences he's been promising.... otherwise we'll have wasted Bargnani's skillset too.
If Derozan is going into his 6th season (as Bargnani in now) just having reggressed defensively, you bet your ass i'll be consistent with my opinion of him as well. But with all that being said, imo Derozan gives more effort then Bargnani and works harder, which right there puts me in his corner.
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 11:09 PM   #23 (permalink)
Nasty, right? I cocked that joint back and banged on him!

Lackey
 
Ammo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Mighty North Tundra
Posts: 3,650
Representing:
Raptors

Rewind: I'm just really thinking about this now. Did they just publicly state that, before even going into camp, or even having a centre yet, that Bargnani will be a PF from now on? Doesn't that tell you something?
Ammo is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 11:20 PM   #24 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,494
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
Rewind: I'm just really thinking about this now. Did they just publicly state that, before even going into camp, or even having a centre yet, that Bargnani will be a PF from now on? Doesn't that tell you something?
I don't think they've stated he won't play any C... but he won't be expected to play it for the majority of each game. This isn't a novel idea. Alot of bigs are hybrid 4/5's now.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 11:22 PM   #25 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 76,148
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
Rewind: I'm just really thinking about this now. Did they just publicly state that, before even going into camp, or even having a centre yet, that Bargnani will be a PF from now on? Doesn't that tell you something?
Yeah, that going into his 6th season he'll play PF. Who said otherwise?
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 11:24 PM   #26 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,494
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
With an "anchor" centre, Bargnani can be partially shielded from blatant defensive failure and fan criticism. I think they are married to the fact that he can't do certain things. They didn't come in and say Bargnani had better start behaving like a centre. 1. He's a PF now. 2. They decided they want to put him in a better position to succeed given his deficiencies.

That does not actually sound like a last chance. It sounds a lot closer to: We'll get you a battleship of a centre and you can float around on the perimeter on your jet ski.
Why can't Casey have Bargnani in the paint defensively with a C? Of course offensively he is going to be on the perimeter alot, but if Casey's discussion of AB and Dirk is any indication, he recognizes AB's ability to be more diverse offensively.... much more than floating on a jet ski.

I hope the Raps learn how to slow the game down, ugly it up, and cut out this run and gun stuff until they learn how to get stops. Then run all you want.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 11:27 PM   #27 (permalink)
Nasty, right? I cocked that joint back and banged on him!

Lackey
 
Ammo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Mighty North Tundra
Posts: 3,650
Representing:
Raptors

A little deeper.....Bargnani came out of his end of season meeting with BC declaring, "I'm a power forward". Casey, who had not even met with his team, or coached them came in saying Bargnani's not going to be their centre. In case anyone is wondering who's running this show, it's BC. One of Amir or Davis is going, so pick your poison.
Ammo is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 11:33 PM   #28 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,494
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
A little deeper.....Bargnani came out of his end of season meeting with BC declaring, "I'm a power forward". Casey, who had not even met with his team, or coached them came in saying Bargnani's not going to be their centre. In case anyone is wondering who's running this show, it's BC. One of Amir or Davis is going, so pick your poison.
yeah, they are putting an emphasis on length and size.... it's a good strategy.... we've always had undersized bigs.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 01:38 AM   #29 (permalink)
is a free agent

Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,883
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
A little deeper.....Bargnani came out of his end of season meeting with BC declaring, "I'm a power forward". Casey, who had not even met with his team, or coached them came in saying Bargnani's not going to be their centre. In case anyone is wondering who's running this show, it's BC. One of Amir or Davis is going, so pick your poison.
True. I have been saying this all along that Davis will be the first to be traded, won't be surprised if it will be for a vet PG or SF.
Tommy C is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 07:56 AM   #30 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,741
Representing:
Default

Seriously ammo, you are putting a bit too much on shit that has been said. How much of it could be about making sure he retains some kind of trade value?

Here's a question - did he not play PF at all last season? And if he somehow magically never needs to do anything a C is expected to do again (which is hard to fathom for any PF, let alone a PF that is a 7-footer) then does this team somehow magically stop giving up more points than they can manufacture, by a good amount, while he is on the floor? Do teams stop going right at him to exploit his inabilities if there is some beastly Center playing with him? Does the overall defense stand a chance to get better with him being able to help far more than constantly needing help?

If we could get a player like Chandler, who was able to compliment a player like Diaw to provide very effective defense, then maybe there is a chance. That entails that Andrea is able to respond like Diaw, and uncover an awareness to match Diaw's, and that is asking a fair bit for a guy that hasn't shown the interest or the ability to handle the speed of the NBA game. If the other team has two bigs that pose any kind of offensive threat, then Andrea will be required to defend. There is no magical way around that. To think for a moment that there is would be a recipe for another coach's demise.

The new coach emphasized getting stops and scoring off of the defense. That is what I will be looking for, and in my mind the only route to take in that regard is making use of the obvious abilities of Davis, and getting this team playing basketball again. I don't expect wins right away, just losing the right way at least.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 08:01 AM   #31 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,741
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
yeah, they are putting an emphasis on length and size.... it's a good strategy.... we've always had undersized bigs.
Will Bargnani make use of his length and size then? And how does Davis not have length and size, as well as athleticism? He needs more strength, and that is far more attainable than Bargnani being able to play big, because he's simply too slow and uninterested.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 08:42 AM   #32 (permalink)
Nasty, right? I cocked that joint back and banged on him!

Lackey
 
Ammo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Mighty North Tundra
Posts: 3,650
Representing:
Raptors

It's all about whether you think with even a tiny improvement in defence that they actually would still move Andrea. I'm not seeing it. They're not demanding, they are accomodating and they see him as the piece they need when they contend....like Dirk. A lot of guys don't want Andrea here, but BC doesn't mind hurting your feelings.

So which asset is sitting on the bench at PF watching when there is this anchor centre, Andrea and Valunciunas (learning) playing ahead. Amir at 6 or 7 mil and capable of starting at PF or Davis who needs minutes and can start at PF?
Ammo is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 08:55 AM   #33 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,494
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
Will Bargnani make use of his length and size then? And how does Davis not have length and size, as well as athleticism? He needs more strength, and that is far more attainable than Bargnani being able to play big, because he's simply too slow and uninterested.
Maybe? Is that the answer you wanted? Casey has talked about the team getting much more physical, which should only lend towards his size and length being more of a factor, given that generally slows down the game for an opposing offense.

Sure Davis has decent size and length for a PF... and his athleticism is good too. A frontcourt of Davis and Johnson though is small compared to other teams.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 10:24 AM   #34 (permalink)
Waiting for DD's 1st in game wind mill Dunk

Senior Member

 
halphbreedballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: T.O.
Posts: 4,796
Representing:
Default

No one has to go untill JV gets here & if AB shows big signs of improvement then Davis or amir could be gone but if AB does not improve he will be gone...

But the way I see it is why can't we keep all 4? At least untill we have to make moves on ED & JV's rookie contracts what does it matter?

I would rather us keep those 4 then have Reggie or Dorsey coming of the bench...

Last edited by halphbreedballer; 07-06-2011 at 06:41 PM.
halphbreedballer is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 02:03 PM   #35 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 895
Representing:
Default

if Ed makes it clear he wishes to stay , we need to trade Amir, or Bargnani, depending on who we get better value for

Dorsey shouldn't be on the roster, Evans is as good as gone

i want to keep Alibi after reading that article on how he's progressed quite substantially and is now a better player than Joell Anthony, article may have been a bit biased but who knows, we'll see.

Ajinca he could go too

Ed Davis/Bargnani/Amir
JV/Amir/Alibi


and no im not expecting there to be a season next year at all
jrob23 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 05:05 PM   #36 (permalink)
Nasty, right? I cocked that joint back and banged on him!

Lackey
 
Ammo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Mighty North Tundra
Posts: 3,650
Representing:
Raptors

Quote:
Originally Posted by halphbreedballer View Post
No one has to go untill JV gets here & if AB shows big signs of improvement the Davis or amir could be gone but if AB does not improve he will be gone...

But the way I see it is why can't we keep all 4? At least untill we have to make moves on ED & JV's rookie contracts what does it matter?

I would rather us keep those 4 then have Reggie or Dorsey coming of the bench...
Because it doesn't look like we're talking about 4, more like 5, not even including Evans, Dorsey and Alabi. And I probably don't have to say why it is a good idea to have that anchor centre while Valuncias is learning.
Ammo is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 05:11 PM   #37 (permalink)
Captain of the Jamario Moon fan club.

Born Unready
 
Dark Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Electric Avenue
Posts: 15,521
Representing:
Default

If Ed can show that he can develop a consistent offense game, I would have no problem starting him over Andrea. But until then, we need offense from somewhere, and Andrea is the only proven 20 ppg scorer on this roster. You can talk all about his deficiencies on defense and rebounding, but you can't deny the man's scoring ability.
Dark Knight is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 06:05 PM   #38 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,741
Representing:
Default

I can deny his scoring ability. At least in terms of consistency and efficiency. He went a whole month shooting blanks, and basically just shrugged and said it happens o him every year. And you know what? If he found other ways of having an impact then I wouldn't be bothered by that. But he doesn't find other ways. If anything the rest of his game gets even worse when his shots don't drop. And he doesn't make a point of driving to the basket. The offense can come off of the kind of movement Casey helped to put together in Dallas, as well as off of defense as Casey has promised to work towards realizing. Putting any hopes in a guy that has an overall negative impact is a recipe for dysfunction and another coach out the door. And if it's all about BC being accommodating then he's as good as gone himself. I don't see any of that being the case, unless we're doomed to being eternally hopeless.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 08:14 PM   #39 (permalink)
Sick, Wicked, and Nasty!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,223
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
I can deny his scoring ability. At least in terms of consistency and efficiency. He went a whole month shooting blanks, and basically just shrugged and said it happens o him every year. And you know what? If he found other ways of having an impact then I wouldn't be bothered by that. But he doesn't find other ways. If anything the rest of his game gets even worse when his shots don't drop. And he doesn't make a point of driving to the basket. The offense can come off of the kind of movement Casey helped to put together in Dallas, as well as off of defense as Casey has promised to work towards realizing. Putting any hopes in a guy that has an overall negative impact is a recipe for dysfunction and another coach out the door. And if it's all about BC being accommodating then he's as good as gone himself. I don't see any of that being the case, unless we're doomed to being eternally hopeless.
agree, except i think this time casey actually has more say than the players, Bargs is out the door before casey is if something goes wrong
i think BC is being accommodating because he knows realistically we cannot get any "better" scorers than Bargs through FA or trades
realistically nobody is trading away a high caliber scorer and the FAs are not flocking over here, so as long as he doesn't find a scorer to come here he has to hold onto bargs, its sad but i think its true
Admiral is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 08:17 PM   #40 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,741
Representing:
Default

I think he has to hold onto Bargnani, because he is going to be really hard to trad at this point. I can live with that, but he really does have to be held accountable, and look at a very different role.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24