Slam: Raptors one of five teams to make a huge jump - Page 2
Old 08-02-2012, 07:51 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Really? Imo our bench is a weakness, Calderon/Ross/Kleiza/Davis/Gray doesn't give me great confidence on either end.
Out of curiosity, what teams have benches you like more?
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:28 PM   #22 (permalink)
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This is one of the more realistic predictions I've read about the raptors. Usually there too hopeful or to brutal.
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:54 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Out of curiosity, what teams have benches you like more?
Oh, i don't know i'd have to look at everyone's bench. At this point so much has happened this summer i'm not sure who has what off the bench. But when you look at ours, Ross is a rookie so who knows what you're going to get, probably inconsistency. Kleiza is inconsistent and not a great defender, Davis is still undersized, Gray is ok but nothing special. Jose i like coming off the bench but again he sucks defensively and unless he scores more than he's used to i just don't have a crapload of confidence they can score enough.
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:17 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Oh, i don't know i'd have to look at everyone's bench. At this point so much has happened this summer i'm not sure who has what off the bench. But when you look at ours, Ross is a rookie so who knows what you're going to get, probably inconsistency. Kleiza is inconsistent and not a great defender, Davis is still undersized, Gray is ok but nothing special. Jose i like coming off the bench but again he sucks defensively and unless he scores more than he's used to i just don't have a crapload of confidence they can score enough.
You're entitled to your opinion, so I won't shit on you for saying you think the bench is a weakness. But I just find it strange you'd make that statement without being certain what opposing units they are playing against, since it's all relative. Most teams benches have some sort of deficiency, that's why they are bench players. You should be judging our bench in relation to other teams, not as an isolated unit.
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
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You're entitled to your opinion, so I won't shit on you for saying you think the bench is a weakness. But I just find it strange you'd make that statement without being certain what opposing units they are playing against, since it's all relative. Most teams benches have some sort of deficiency, that's why they are bench players. You should be judging our bench in relation to other teams, not as an isolated unit.
You're right, and maybe our bench will be fine. Just looking at it, it's not very impressive. Not the worst bench in the league by any stretch though.
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:54 PM   #26 (permalink)
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You're right, and maybe our bench will be fine. Just looking at it, it's not very impressive. Not the worst bench in the league by any stretch though.
If you are not including JV or Andrea on the bench, you have to include Amir. And between Amir and Jose, I think our bench will be just fine, with Kleiza, Ross, Gray and Ed able to provide well in specific situations and in complementary ways.
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Old 08-03-2012, 11:30 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Raps have a very strong backup roster lineup this season. If starting lineup will be lowry-DD-Fields-Barg-Val, then the backup roster will be:

Calderon-Ross-Kleiza-Amir-Gray with additional backup players like JL3, AA, ED, Quincy.

This looks great to me, as our bench lineup is as strong as our 10-11 season starting lineup (i.e. our bench roster is stronger than Bobcat's starting lineup )

If our injury prones, like Calderon, Kleiza, and Gray, are out for injuries, we can still fill their positions with third string players to fulfill the complete roster like JL3-Ross-AA-ED-Amir.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:02 PM   #28 (permalink)
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You're entitled to your opinion, so I won't shit on you for saying you think the bench is a weakness. But I just find it strange you'd make that statement without being certain what opposing units they are playing against, since it's all relative. Most teams benches have some sort of deficiency, that's why they are bench players. You should be judging our bench in relation to other teams, not as an isolated unit.
Lemme put it this way, Toronto's starters are aid to be MAYBE good enough to MAYBE challenge for 8th, and thats if EVERYTHING goes as planned.

So

if thats the starters, and they are basically shit compared to actual teams. Then, by default, how can the guys not good enough to beat these schleps out for a starting spot on a horrible team be considered anything but shitty benchers?
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:11 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Lemme put it this way, Toronto's starters are aid to be MAYBE good enough to MAYBE challenge for 8th, and thats if EVERYTHING goes as planned.

So

if thats the starters, and they are basically shit compared to actual teams. Then, by default, how can the guys not good enough to beat these schleps out for a starting spot on a horrible team be considered anything but shitty benchers?
that's your interpretation ... what they actually said was that our starters PLUS our bench are maybe good enough for the 8th spot. Plus, some of the bench guys are very close to the starters in talent level.

and why do you care anyway, you have eyes
jose is the best backup pg in the league by a wide margin, amir, kleiza and gray or JV are solid backups and ed/ross are wildcards, could be really good or really bad.

If we keep the current roster, I'm fairly confident we'll finish top 3 in bench production this season.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:25 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Lemme put it this way, Toronto's starters are aid to be MAYBE good enough to MAYBE challenge for 8th, and thats if EVERYTHING goes as planned.

So

if thats the starters, and they are basically shit compared to actual teams.

Then, by default, how can the guys not good enough to beat these schleps out for a starting spot on a horrible team be considered anything but shitty benchers?
Even if our bench was bad, you just used horriawful logic with that "default" comment. Because the bench should be assesed relative to other teams benches. But our bench doesn't suck shit, so you're wrong twice.

There can be a greater drop-off from the starters to the bench on the supposedly "better teams", thus allowing our bench to be equal or greater than the bench on those "better teams", because we don't have the same drop-off.

Here's a numerical scheme simply for the purpose of explaining the point. On a really good team, you might have a starting unit that is an 8 or 9 in talent level, while the bench unit is a 4 or 5. The starters play a significant chunck of minutes thus allowing that team to be good. On the other hand, the Raps might have a starting unit at a 6 in talent, which means they lose a lot of games, but the drop-off on the bench ain't that bad because they have a Calderon who is a 6, and some others who are 5s as individuals. As a unit, they're like a 5 or a 5.5 and thus can match other teams benches, even if they're no where as good as the other team's starters. The Raps bench is not a weakness.

Also, keep in mind, since certain players make others better, having a soild PG can make mediocre players look better, by getting them clean looks. When you have an elite BENCH PG, that makes the whole unit better. Calderon is definitely not an elite starter, but he's an elite back-up.

It's kinda funny because you go around making Calderon this big issue on the board lately, and talk about how he's not worse than Lowry, instead "just different", yet you fail to acknowledge Calderon's value to our bench.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:27 PM   #31 (permalink)
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sorry pal, if your team is a lottery tam, your starters are benchers and your benchers are d-leagues, go sell crazy someplace else.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:32 PM   #32 (permalink)
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sorry pal, if your team is a lottery tam, your starters are benchers and your benchers are d-leagues, go sell crazy someplace else.
Translation:

Bill just explained that in a clever way that made it look like I completely missed the point.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:34 PM   #33 (permalink)
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sorry pal, if your team is a lottery tam, your starters are benchers and your benchers are d-leagues, go sell crazy someplace else.
So Calderon is a d-leaguer? What a change of heart.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:41 PM   #34 (permalink)
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No Bill. you didnt explain shit, so please, fuck off on this one. Whats to explain aside form that you are a delusional fanboy of sorts?? You cannot have it both ways. Calderon is good, yes, the rest suck. Sorry man, but they do.

This team was terrible, you add a new pg, and now they are awesome and have the best bench in the NBA.

Fuck me with a dumptruck.

I'm off to the beach, you'r fucking insane!
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:54 PM   #35 (permalink)
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No Bill. you didnt explain shit, so please, fuck off on this one. Whats to explain aside form that you are a delusional fanboy of sorts?? You cannot have it both ways. Calderon is good, yes, the rest suck. Sorry man, but they do.

This team was terrible, you add a new pg, and now they are awesome and have the best bench in the NBA.

Fuck me with a dumptruck.

I'm off to the beach, you'r fucking insane!
Pure trolling. I never said they were the best bench in the league.

Heck, in that numerical scheme I wasn't even gving them much credit, just calling them slightly better than some other benches. But, of course, I'm a fanboy.

Further to what I said before, the Lakers are a prime example, last year. There was a much greater drop-off from the starters to the bench than you'd find on Toronto. So the Lakers would clearly have the better team, but not the better bench. That's a microcosm of my point.

Just from a standpoint of logic, Toronto can be a 9th or 10th place team overall in the conference, while having a bench that is 6th or 7th in the conference when rated against other benches. Your benches ranking is not automatically directly correlated with the team's ranking, since starters play more minutes and obviously have a greater impact on the final result. It's quite straightforward, and not fanboyish.
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Old 08-03-2012, 06:23 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I get you Bill. Unfortunately, that's the formula for half of the teams in NBA. If you can't get a good starting five, you at least try to fill the roster with 9 decent players. You hardly get a team with average starters AND poor bench. That's why these teams' starters and benchers are often interchangible and you see many different starting line ups.
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