Slam online: Raptors resurgence - Page 2
Old 01-09-2014, 12:01 AM   #21 (permalink)
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sigh, fuck it...
guess if we're gonna win this season may as well go for the 47+ record.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:35 AM   #22 (permalink)
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No...to me assuming we will only sign one year contracts. I stated that I suspect we re-sign Hansbrough and Patterson. That was above the $44 million, pushing us to $50ish. If the cap is above 60, that's still $10. Then you decide if the quality of the player you can sign is worth shedding someone to create a bit of extra room.

Yes, you have to count the number of empty roster spots since they will have league minimum cap holds. So, yeah, that's a few million. But we might also shed Novak by then.

Again, the point is, there is some flexibility to get a good impact player as early as 2015.

As for the "not sure what good that would do" to get almost all-star player, are you saying our team wouldn't be better off with Paul Millsap instead of Patterson or Hansbrough? That seems just...wrong to me.
Yeah, but that 10m player wouldn't come off the bench, no? You'd have to probably upgrade one of the starters, and the upgrade would be minor.

Anyway, my comment was in regards to signing a top player -we wouldn't have the cap for that. I would suggest that that those 12 mild are better spent on 2-3 quality contracts instead.

Ultimately, the elephant in the room remains the fact that we lack star power and we have little to no chance to get it. We'll just have to hope we already have him, probably in JV, as Ross has much lower upside.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:58 AM   #23 (permalink)
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sigh, fuck it...
guess if we're gonna win this season may as well go for the 47+ record.
Oh poor, Kirby, he might be forced to watch some winning! Every fan's nightmare!
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:16 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Yeah, but that 10m player wouldn't come off the bench, no? You'd have to probably upgrade one of the starters, and the upgrade would be minor.
Either is a possiblity, I suppose. If you could get a guy like Millsap, that would be an amazing addition to the bench. I mean, I consider him as good as David West (has made an all-star team) in terms of impact on the game. A 3-man big rotation of JV, Amir, and Millsap in 2015...that would be great.

Or, yeah, maybe one of the starters gets moved for an upgrade; it would depend on if a really good player was available and wanted to come.

The whole point is there is some flexibility to improve nicely, aside from just internal development (which all signs suggest will also happen).

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Anyway, my comment was in regards to signing a top player -we wouldn't have the cap for that. I would suggest that that those 12 mild are better spent on 2-3 quality contracts instead.
I think the best way to spend that money depends on whose available and what other moves might be available via trade. We can't know any of that for sure, right now, so I won't bother pressing it much more.

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Ultimately, the elephant in the room remains the fact that we lack star power and we have little to no chance to get it. We'll just have to hope we already have him, probably in JV, as Ross has much lower upside.
Given his age, Jonas' future looks very promising.

I don't think Derozan is necessarily a "star" yet, but he sure as hell has outplayed Paul George two games in a row. And Wade looked like his bitch against Miami. To compete, you just need guys who can look like stars on any given night.

You saw that, right?
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:27 AM   #25 (permalink)
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You're trying to hard to be a negative nancy all the time, bruh.

There were 7 rotation players in the salaries I listed if the 2014 pick is a rotation calibre player, and 9 if they re-sign Hansbrough and Patterson. Then the cap space adds someone of quality. That's more than enough players, you silly goose. They could even look to shed somebody to increase cap space for the addition they make.
Our pick this year will fall in the 20+ range most likely, its far from guaranteed that it's a rotatation player. Patterson is looking great and will likely demand and get 4-5 mil or so this summer. Not trying to be a negative nancy, just trying to look at it logically.
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Old 01-09-2014, 09:22 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Patterson is a nice piece. I like what he brings and he's only 24. He plays hard, has some speed and length, doesn't demand the ball, and can defend a couple of positions. It obviously always depends on the price but I'd love to see him back.
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Old 01-09-2014, 10:11 AM   #27 (permalink)
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In 2015, my calculations have us at 19M cap space (assuming projected cap of 63.7M, which will probably actually be conservative). That's with the re-signed Lowry and Amir numbers Bill suggested. And includes cap holds for roster spots. A couple million might get eaten by draft picks this year and next. That leaves an estimated 16 million.

That would be just enough for a max free agent that year. Any pay going to Patterson, Hansbrough (yuck) or anyone else would obviously cut into that, but at least there's the possibility of a max contract with our entire starting lineup intact.

By the way, on another forum a poster suggested an idea to re-sign Lowry the same way OKC extended Collison a few years ago, by including a signing bonus. It wouldn't work for Lowry, but I figured out we could apply it to Amir. I'm going to make a thread for it, I think. Have to get all the numbers sorted.
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Old 01-09-2014, 11:45 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Patterson is a nice piece. I like what he brings and he's only 24. He plays hard, has some speed and length, doesn't demand the ball, and can defend a couple of positions. It obviously always depends on the price but I'd love to see him back.
Agreed. Really like what Patterson has brought to the table for the Raps so far.
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Old 01-09-2014, 11:53 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Our pick this year will fall in the 20+ range most likely, its far from guaranteed that it's a rotatation player. Patterson is looking great and will likely demand and get 4-5 mil or so this summer. Not trying to be a negative nancy, just trying to look at it logically.
Pat-Pat at 4 mil a year is a steal. He is a great player and can do much more than Ed Davis used to do here. He just needs some playing time. He can stretch the floor, play some D and passes the ball well. He is also vocal and looks to me like great locker room guy. Davis was good here before he got traded but his game was very 1 dimensional.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:06 PM   #30 (permalink)
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No...to me assuming we will only sign one year contracts. I stated that I suspect we re-sign Hansbrough and Patterson. That was above the $44 million, pushing us to $50ish. If the cap is above 60, that's still $10. Then you decide if the quality of the player you can sign is worth shedding someone to create a bit of extra room.

Yes, you have to count the number of empty roster spots since they will have league minimum cap holds. So, yeah, that's a few million. But we might also shed Novak by then.

Again, the point is, there is some flexibility to get a good impact player as early as 2015.

As for the "not sure what good that would do" to get almost all-star player, are you saying our team wouldn't be better off with Paul Millsap instead of Patterson or Hansbrough? That seems just...wrong to me.
Your posts in this thread have been excellent bill, but I don't agree on patterson/millsap.

Not sure spending our cap space on upgrading from PP to millsap would improve us massively. I'm splitting hairs coz that was just an example you were giving but I really rate PP and think he could potentially be a valuable, low-usage guy for us, possibly even starting over amir. He was a very good rookie and sophmore, outshining Ed, and then went into pause mode career wise, pretty much through no fault of his own.

We need to resign that guy, hope he we can get him on a good contract.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:12 PM   #31 (permalink)
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If PP keep improving at the rate he is, he might be better value than Milsap. Not better just better for the dollars.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:50 PM   #32 (permalink)
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If PP keep improving at the rate he is, he might be better value than Milsap. Not better just better for the dollars.
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't put it past him to eventually develop into the same calibur of a player as Millsap. Dude just continues to produce and is only 24.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:01 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Yeah, I definitely wouldn't put it past him to eventually develop into the same calibur of a player as Millsap. Dude just continues to produce and is only 24.
Yeah, I also like the fact he is vocal and communicates well with his teammates. I really hope we will be able to keep him.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:30 PM   #34 (permalink)
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In 2015, my calculations have us at 19M cap space (assuming projected cap of 63.7M, which will probably actually be conservative). That's with the re-signed Lowry and Amir numbers Bill suggested. And includes cap holds for roster spots. A couple million might get eaten by draft picks this year and next. That leaves an estimated 16 million.

That would be just enough for a max free agent that year. Any pay going to Patterson, Hansbrough (yuck) or anyone else would obviously cut into that, but at least there's the possibility of a max contract with our entire starting lineup intact.

By the way, on another forum a poster suggested an idea to re-sign Lowry the same way OKC extended Collison a few years ago, by including a signing bonus. It wouldn't work for Lowry, but I figured out we could apply it to Amir. I'm going to make a thread for it, I think. Have to get all the numbers sorted.
I don't see how you can abandon tanking this season when the prize is wiggins, and then decide to tank next season, for cap space. Especially when it's very unclear if a max-level free agent would even consider us, especially if we tank the season (I assume everyone is in agreement that going one year with a bench of fields, nowak, stone and patterson is, in essence, tanking).

It would be the right strategy, don't get me wrong - I'd rather have an extra lottery pick that summer + 19M in cap space, even if I spend it all on mid tier players. But it will be a tough, tough sell imo. The fans would not take it lightly, especially we have a good playoff experience this season.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:36 PM   #35 (permalink)
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and in any case, the original argument was that we can be both successful (like in a 2nd round appearance next season) AND have cap space, which is what I think is unrealistic. We can have cap space, perhaps as much as max (according to Dan), but at the expense of either losing lowry, or going without a bench for a full season.
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Old 01-09-2014, 03:03 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I don't see how you can abandon tanking this season when the prize is wiggins, and then decide to tank next season, for cap space. Especially when it's very unclear if a max-level free agent would even consider us, especially if we tank the season (I assume everyone is in agreement that going one year with a bench of fields, nowak, stone and patterson is, in essence, tanking).
You assume wrong.

First, you're forgetting Hansbrough and Hayes still on the bench next year. So, the frontcourt back-ups are the same.

Second, we're winning right now with Vazquez playing quite shitty. Stone might not be that much worse than Vazquez; he might even be better in a different type of way, actually. Lowry is going to play 35 MPG at PG, no doubt.

Third, if Salmons goes - and that's not necessary to create cap space for summer 2015 because he'll expire anyway - then Fields will be a drop off. But Fields did some nice things at point forward, as much as it pains me to say it. I liked hating on him, but he is not totally useless, although a drop-off. But...

Lastly, as always, you forget, or simply choose to ignore the impact of the internal improvement our our good young players. And I should probably have started with this point since I think it's very important, you need to remember that the starting lineup will continue to get better and make up for some of the shortcomings with the bench. Ross is barely playing 30 minutes per game right now. If we lost Salmons (which again, doesn't have to happen to preserve the 2015 space), Ross would take some of his minutes and probably go up to 36 minutes per game, limiting the amount of time Fields needs to play. When you have five really good starters, you just need to be good at staggering minutes if the bench is not that good.

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It would be the right strategy, don't get me wrong - I'd rather have an extra lottery pick that summer + 19M in cap space, even if I spend it all on mid tier players. But it will be a tough, tough sell imo. The fans would not take it lightly, especially we have a good playoff experience this season.
You're so silly for thinking that losing Vazquez and Salmons would take us from playoff team to lottery. That's essentially what you're saying, and we might not even need to lose Salmons, since he would be expiring for summer 2015 if we guaranteed his contract next year. Stop and think about your post, dude.

Is Vazquez so much better than Stone, and Salmons so much better than Fields, that having to play those two guys off the bench would cause us to "tank". Really? REALLY? And for the millionth time, we don't even need to lose Salmons. So, really it might just be Stone over Vazquez.

The more I think about it, keeping Salmons might be better for flexibility than using the MLE, because Salmons will be expiring at the perfect time.

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Old 01-09-2014, 03:46 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Oh poor, Kirby, he might be forced to watch some winning! Every fan's nightmare!
I just hope we don't end up being on a treadmill, that's my concern.
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Old 01-09-2014, 03:51 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I still hold my stance that is is an awful and short-sighted route to take. Don't ask why because I've posted my reasons a billion times.

Just awful, I guess desperate fans need their doses of pointless wins...
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Old 01-09-2014, 03:53 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Yeah, a treadmill of 50 wins every year would be awful.
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Old 01-09-2014, 03:53 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I still hold my stance that is is an awful and short-sighted route to take. Don't ask why because I've posted my reasons a billion times.

Just awful, I guess desperate fans need their doses of pointless wins...
And the rest need to whine and say how right they are.
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