Slam: 5 trades that should happen before the season starts - Page 3
Old 12-06-2011, 11:34 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LX View Post
Ok cool - you weren't referring to me. Who were these narrow-minded multitudes? The trade suggested came from an outsider. Doc made a reasonable objection to the thought process involved. And then you threw Ed under the bus, or at least threw out the idea of moving him a little too flippantly to really recognize his value, which should be quite high in Casey's mind if he speaks the truth.

I got worked up because you are busy painting in blacks and whites. That is positive. That is negative. There is plenty of passion on all sides and that should be some indication of enjoyment as a fan. I mostly got worked up due to my own passions, and was expressing them strongly - nothing personal there. I would just hate to see the proper process of building a team mucked up with some idea of projecting JV to be the perfect compliment to AB. AB needs to earn his future on this team for once, starting now. I'll be more than happy if he does.
Hey man, I was actually trying to not paint in black and white.... my assertion that no one really knows who's starting in two years would imply that. I've definitely thrown out Ed Davis trade suggestions often, never flippantly, as I've always suggested very good young talent in return.

As for JV and AB... I agree, it may not be amazing, but it could be. Same as with Ed. But I also like Amir and see duplication with Ed and Amir. It's just the way I see it.

Not only does AB have to earn it, but so does Ed. He hasn't earned a starting gig either. I'm not as enthused about coddling guys but it's not just AB that has been. We're both passionate, and it's cool.... but just because I like AB doesn't mean I hate Ed.
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:38 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Yeah - nice reading. Who let you out of the trade suggestion thread?


that's funny.

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You don't give away a two way player like that at any position for anything less than a clear upgrade, which would have to be a player with the potential of being an all-star.
By clear upgrade, you're talking about at another position, right? Not just trading Ed Davis for a better player, correct? I'm just unclear on your value of ED and I'm just curious.
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:48 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Monta Ellis is worth way more than Bargnani/Bayless. He's one of the best offensive players in the league.
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:49 PM   #44 (permalink)
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this trade is eww. i'm cool for trading bargs, but i'm not cool with getting the shooting guard version of him in return. the idea of having him play point is scary. we have absolutely no one on our team that can handle or distribute the ball aside from the player that would be playing behind him. there'd be no defensive improvement and sadly, i doubt there'd be much of one offensively. lateral move at best.
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:53 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Monta Ellis is worth way more than Bargnani/Bayless. He's one of the best offensive players in the league.
he's actually not worth way more. Bigs in this league are worth far more than combo guards. It's a fair deal but not one that makes us better.
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Old 12-07-2011, 12:00 AM   #46 (permalink)
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he's actually not worth way more. Bigs in this league are worth far more than combo guards. It's a fair deal but not one that makes us better.
bigs that are alergic to defense, can't rebound/block shots...yeah, that's worth tons.
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Old 12-07-2011, 12:44 AM   #47 (permalink)
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DeMar at SF would get MURDERED. That's what I've been afraid of happening for a while, moving him. I think he's perfect for the 2 spot, with the exception of a struggling shot for now.

HOWEVER, Ellis can def play the 1, though good luck getting the ball from him.

Ellis
DeMar
Barnes
Ed
JV

Would deff be amazing.


Won't ever happen though.
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Old 12-07-2011, 12:48 AM   #48 (permalink)
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I thought we were going to concentrate on defense... don't see how Ellis helps
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:08 AM   #49 (permalink)
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yeah, we really need a player like monte ellis, it's not like we don't have enough players with tunner vision on this team ...

I'd rather amnesty Bargnani than take on that horrendous contract ellis has. Not to mention the effect on derozan's development.

and all that for what, ellis is at best a 3rd wheel guy and so far has only shown the ability to score a lot of points while taking a ton of shots. As a 3rd wheel you need a very efficient player, not a ball hog, since presumably there won't be that many shots left after the top two take their share.
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:11 AM   #50 (permalink)
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All those trades are terrible.
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:54 AM   #51 (permalink)
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That's possibly worst argument for a trade ever, for an article. The GSW side of it is horrific. It's sad really.

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It’s beginning to seem like an inevitability that Ellis will be leaving the Warriors either via trade or free agency a year from now, so they might as well deal him while they can.
In other words:
"They tried to shop Ellis in a few blockbuster deals for Howard, CP3 and Melo, so they might as well settle for Andrea Bargnani and his bad contract. Or else Ellis may leave, in a year. Ohh, it's 2-3 years really but why the fuck would I check it, I'm too pro. "


Quote:
Bargnani is a horrific defender, but the team is full of them, and pairing him with David Lee in the post would be an awesome move.
In other words:
"Bargnani makes no sense for that team whatsoever. It's also a team that always aimed for a defensive center like Biedrins in the middle even when they didn't give a shit about defense. And now they don't have Nellie anymore. But hey, lets just fuck it and lets not make sense."



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Bayless hasn’t shown much in his NBA career, but could do something if he got a shot at guard alongside Stephen Curry while being coached by former point guard Mark Jackson.
In other words:
"This Bayless thing isn't working. But here's an idea! Play him alongside a point guard, maybe that will work. But where????? Ohh I know, the Golden State Warriors, you know, the team that wants to trade their best player so they WOULDN'T have to play two small scoring point guards together."


I mean, what the hell?
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:54 AM   #52 (permalink)
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bigs that are alergic to defense, can't rebound/block shots...yeah, that's worth tons.
Lets not be too negative here, almost the whole team is flawed on the defensive end not just Bargs.

On an aside, I do agree with LX, Davis definitely has shown he's a 2 way player and probably the only one on the Raps to do so last year. IMO, much of Davis' play has to do with good instincts, great coaching from UNC, his Dad and added determination to prove he should have been higher in the draft - which was originally projecting him higher before his injury. I do like what he brings to the table for sure - and IF traded definitely for a similar caliber player.

TBH, I'm really torn. IF Bargs shows average defense this year and continues to score 20+ppg and stretches the offense (all for only 10mil) do you trade him to keep Davis? If you have a center than is defensive minded and protects the rim - Alabi and then JV next year - is it better to have to 2 rim protectors in JV/Davis on the floor that will certainly be collapsed on or a defensive center with an average defensive pf that scores 2x the points of Davis and makes the offense flow better. I guess much will depend on the perimeter players but so far their defense has been subpar (saying that nicely). Is it possible to rotate the positions of Davis and Bargs on the floor on either end? I was thinking, just cause Casey said Bargs will be playing PF more, does that mean PF only?

I feel the management is just as torn so I don't believe a major trade with either Bargs or Davis will happen this year. Patience is the key and who the Raps draft in 2012 will certainly effect who will stay. Who knows at this point - most is speculation based on anger and frustration IMO. Maybe LX's joke is accurate, if we get the top pick and a franchise PF is drafted (going by BPA) then sure, trade both and get a SF or PG. Imagine JV, Drummond and DD as a core to build around. Or maybe we go 4th and get a great 2-way SF in Barnes...so many variables that I believe we get to enjoy playing with till the next draft.

Regarding the thread, to think Bargs will go to GS for Ellis to me is kinda silly as it does nothing for GS at all.

Last edited by DocHoliday99; 12-07-2011 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:58 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
That's possibly worst argument for a trade ever, for an article. The GSW side of it is horrific. It's sad really.



In other words:
"They tried to shop Ellis in a few blockbuster deals for Howard, CP3 and Melo, so they might as well settle for Andrea Bargnani and his bad contract. Or else Ellis may leave, in a year. Ohh, it's 2-3 years really but why the fuck would I check it, I'm too pro. "




In other words:
"Bargnani makes no sense for that team whatsoever. It's also a team that always aimed for a defensive center like Biedrins in the middle even when they didn't give a shit about defense. And now they don't have Nellie anymore. But hey, lets just fuck it and lets not make sense."





In other words:
"This Bayless thing isn't working. But here's an idea! Play him alongside a point guard, maybe that will work. But where????? Ohh I know, the Golden State Warriors, you know, the team that wants to trade their best player so they WOULDN'T have to play two small scoring point guards together."


I mean, what the hell?
GREAT fucking post and you used my favorite emoticon. Well played sir. Well played!
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:24 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
That's possibly worst argument for a trade ever, for an article. The GSW side of it is horrific. It's sad really.



In other words:
"They tried to shop Ellis in a few blockbuster deals for Howard, CP3 and Melo, so they might as well settle for Andrea Bargnani and his bad contract. Or else Ellis may leave, in a year. Ohh, it's 2-3 years really but why the fuck would I check it, I'm too pro. "




In other words:
"Bargnani makes no sense for that team whatsoever. It's also a team that always aimed for a defensive center like Biedrins in the middle even when they didn't give a shit about defense. And now they don't have Nellie anymore. But hey, lets just fuck it and lets not make sense."





In other words:
"This Bayless thing isn't working. But here's an idea! Play him alongside a point guard, maybe that will work. But where????? Ohh I know, the Golden State Warriors, you know, the team that wants to trade their best player so they WOULDN'T have to play two small scoring point guards together."


I mean, what the hell?
Lolllll don't question this, its hardly ever one sided for Toronto. But I will say this if Ellis comes will he go back to being a point guard, cause he's a blackhole and if he doesn't pass he's taking away from our other players. Actually looking at all the trades this guy suggested, none made sense really.

Last edited by Blaze; 12-07-2011 at 02:41 AM.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:54 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Lolllll don't question this, its hardly ever one sided for Toronto. But I will say this if Ellis comes will he go back to being a point guard, cause he's a blackhole and if he doesn't pass he's taking away from our other players.
It's tough. Ellis' shot distribution is nearly identical to DeRozan's. They don't exactly complement each other.
Also, Ellis has spent his whole career next to at least one other good distributor (Curry, Baron, S-Jax). If he's the only real play maker in the lineup, it's a bit scary. But you can't play him next to Calderon either, that would be the worst defensive back court in the league by far.
It's a terrible trade. Raptors win on quality but both teams get pieces that don't fit at all.

Ellis would make sense next to a good smart passer who can play off the ball and defend. Pau Gasol, Manu Ginobili, young KG, Al Horford and such.

Actually, when you think of it, Atlanta is a decent bet for Monta Ellis experiment to work.
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Old 12-07-2011, 06:52 AM   #56 (permalink)
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If this deal falls through we'll definitely have to take back a contract.

Ellis 11m
Lee 11.5m

for:

Bargnani 9m
Bayless 3m
Barbosa 7.5m

GS:
Curry
Barbosa
Wright
Bargnani
Biedrins

-They save 3 million dollars outright
-Get rid of Lee's contract

RAPS
Ellis/Calderon
DeRozan/Weems
Johnson/Kleiza
Lee/Davis/Johnson
FA/Alabi

-Raps get... Monta Ellis ... nuff said.
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Old 12-07-2011, 06:53 AM   #57 (permalink)
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damn just seen Lee's contract and it's A W F U L.
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Old 12-07-2011, 07:35 AM   #58 (permalink)
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They likely wouldn't trade Lee for Bargs. And you want them to also give Monta.
Maybe Monta + Biedrins' dead contract for Bargs and cap. Not sure if that would work. They are obviously aiming much higher.
And they can just amnesty one guy anyway.

Lee's contract isn't great but it's not something that you would give Monta to get rid off. You probably wouldn't want to get rid of it at all unless you get something good in return.
Take away the period with Chandler's teeth in his elbow, and he's basically an 18-10-3 guy.
He's very efficient around the rim, his jumper is deadly, he can pass and he can rebound.
He won't block shots and won't be a force on D but he's not Bargs either.
It would be nice if he was at Bargs salary of ~11-12 mil instead of ~13-14 mil. But he's also better than Bargs, so...

If Lee was so terrible, they would just amnesty him. They wouldn't give serious talent to get rid of him and take on Raptors' crappy contracts.
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Old 12-07-2011, 07:44 AM   #59 (permalink)
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GREAT fucking post and you used my favorite emoticon. Well played sir. Well played!
My new rule no.1: always use someone's favorite emoticon. A little ass kissing is cool if it brings such positive replies!


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Old 12-07-2011, 08:08 AM   #60 (permalink)
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This isn't even a new idea. Last season someone realized that there were two teams that might want to swap players that were inefficient on offense, and non-existent on defense.

Great job of skewering it VF. May I add that Mark Jackson may not be thrilled with the idea of preaching defense while inserting Bargnani ino his rotation. Nor would Casey be overjoyed with the prospect of an even weaker perimeter. The only way I could take the idea seriously would be with both guys being made to understand they would have drastically different roles. But that's going to be the case regardless. Ellis would still need to be a different player in Atlanta, where they already have problems taking turns from one ball hog to another. The bottom line is that there isn't anything that really explains the need for such a trade to happen outside of the similarity of the two players, but it's the kind of thing I expect.
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