Sir Charles in Charge - Optimistic outlook
Old 08-12-2013, 11:14 AM   #1 (permalink)
LX
effin' ineffable

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 30,572
Representing:
Default Sir Charles in Charge - Optimistic outlook

30 In 30: Toronto Raptors - Sir Charles In Charge - A General NBA Fan Site - News, Blogs, Opinion and More

Quote:
The Toronto Raptors have to be one of the most difficult teams to breakdown. We really donít know if theyíll be really, really bad or a wildcard in the Eastern Conference. My guess is the latter.

Last season, the Raptors finished tied for ninth ó four games out of the final playoff spot in the East. They acquired small forward Rudy Gay midway through the season and cut loose former No. 1 overall pick Andrea Bargnani. A changing of the guard, or at least the beginning of one.

Gay, who will be entering his first full season as a Raptor, will further begin to blossom, i believe. In 30-plus games in Toronto, Gay averaged 19.5 points, three assists and six rebounds. He is exactly what Toronto had been needing for quite some time ó an additional wing threat.

Theyíve relied on DeMar DeRozanís scoring, along with Jose Calderon, but they basically decided to swap Calderon for a younger Gay. Good choice.

The next step for Toronto is to bring home some hardware. Playoffs. The last time they made the playoffs? 2008. Chris Bosh was still a Raptor. When was the last time they won a playoff series? 2002. Who do they think they are, the New York Knicks?

The road to a playoff spot in the East is simple. Miami, Indiana, Chicago, Brooklyn and New York will earn the first five spots, thatís the simple part. After that, there are three spots that will be up-for-grabs for Cleveland, Washington, Detroit, Atlanta and Toronto.

(Projected) 2013-2014 W-L: 43-39

I may be extremely optimistic for this Raptors team, but I think they snag the seventh seed in the Eastern Conference next season. Iím a Rudy Gay apologist and think he will average 20-plus points this season. Guilty. I like DeRozanís game and am really high on Jonas Valanciunas. Raptors will be back in the playoffs. Book it.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 11:22 AM   #2 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 81,351
Representing:
Default

let's hope
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 12:42 PM   #3 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,076
Representing:
Default

Yes, sure, the first round fodder with no chance of getting better. That's something to hope for.
MikeToronto is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 12:50 PM   #4 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 81,351
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
Yes, sure, the first round fodder with no chance of getting better. That's something to hope for.
NO Chance to be better? Why is that?
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 12:52 PM   #5 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,076
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
NO Chance to be better? Why is that?
Because, outside of Jonas, all our players are what they are and have very little room for improvement from within. And being a borderline playoffs team pretty much guarantees that you cannot get significantly better through the draft.

We've been through this discussion a number of times in the past. Is it really necessary to re-hash the whole argument?
MikeToronto is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 12:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 81,351
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
Because, outside of Jonas, all our players are what they are and have very little room for improvement from within. And being a borderline playoffs team pretty much guarantees that you cannot get significantly better through the draft.

We've been through this discussion a number of times in the past. Is it really necessary to re-hash the whole argument?
No, because there are some that think the only way to get better is through the draft. Others think there are other ways in addition to drafting .
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 01:12 PM   #7 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,076
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
No, because there are some that think the only way to get better is through the draft. Others think there are other ways in addition to drafting .
Right, and if only "others" cared to produce an example of such "in addition to drafting" successful team building outside of highly desired destinations, it'd certainly make for a great off-season reading.
MikeToronto is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 01:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 10,404
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
No, because there are some that think the only way to get better is through the draft. Others think there are other ways in addition to drafting .
and others have been waiting for months to hear what are those magic options available to us ...
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 01:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 81,351
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
and others have been waiting for months to hear what are those magic options available to us ...
You honestly don't know the other options other then just through the draft?
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 01:19 PM   #10 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 10,404
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
You honestly don't know the other options other then just through the draft?
yes, honestly
name one way we could improve THIS team (not generally speaking) in the next 2 years.
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 01:20 PM   #11 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 10,404
Representing:
Default

but I agree with barkley, 43-39 is an optimistic, but doable outlook.
the real question is - is it worth it ? If the cost is a high lottery pick in next year's draft?
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 01:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
LX
effin' ineffable

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 30,572
Representing:
Default

Start winning. Keep winning. For a long time. Somewhere along the way they might win enough. It's your basic pattern for success throughout all of sports. But here we get guys being snarky and condescending when the idea of starting to win is presented. Must lose.

Oh - can someone please offer the great off-season reading that illustrates options as to how this team is going to manage to lose enough to make that worthwhile?
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 01:30 PM   #13 (permalink)
LX
effin' ineffable

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 30,572
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
but I agree with barkley, 43-39 is an optimistic, but doable outlook.
the real question is - is it worth it ? If the cost is a high lottery pick in next year's draft?
Start winning. Keep winning. The options only increase from there. If you want a championship tomorrow, neither your way nor my way is going to get there. Long-term is where this team needs to keep a strong focus. They have assets. They have the means to get better, bit by bit, year after year, and maybe make the right jumps at some points down the line. Seems kinda fun to me. Beats obsessing over draft picks in my books at this point.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 02:21 PM   #14 (permalink)
If I ruled the world...

Sippin' On Myself
 
KoolAid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Yes
Posts: 3,625
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
Start winning. Keep winning. The options only increase from there. If you want a championship tomorrow, neither your way nor my way is going to get there. Long-term is where this team needs to keep a strong focus. They have assets. They have the means to get better, bit by bit, year after year, and maybe make the right jumps at some points down the line. Seems kinda fun to me. Beats obsessing over draft picks in my books at this point.
And if the duo of Gay and Lowry leave, then what? If even one of them decides to leave we're royally screwed and just tossed a season down the drain. Hell, even if they stay, we won't have cap room to make any transactions that actually will improve us. Our main sources of improvement will be picks in the 13-16 range and internal growth. I don't think that anybody should be depending on those picks to actually be good, and most of our guys are in their prime already and not getting much better. What assets do we have? We're not last year's Houston, our two best guys could walk after this year, and we don't have much young talent. We're not going to be making any big moves any time soon.


But it's all worth it for two home playoff games right?
KoolAid is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 04:12 PM   #15 (permalink)
LX
effin' ineffable

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 30,572
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolAid View Post
And if the duo of Gay and Lowry leave, then what? If even one of them decides to leave we're royally screwed and just tossed a season down the drain. Hell, even if they stay, we won't have cap room to make any transactions that actually will improve us. Our main sources of improvement will be picks in the 13-16 range and internal growth. I don't think that anybody should be depending on those picks to actually be good, and most of our guys are in their prime already and not getting much better. What assets do we have? We're not last year's Houston, our two best guys could walk after this year, and we don't have much young talent. We're not going to be making any big moves any time soon.


But it's all worth it for two home playoff games right?
Yeah. Two home playoff games is exactly the kind of long-term thinking I was talking about. Right?

You're right. Nobody should depend of lower draft picks being any good. Nor should they depend on higher picks amounting to what they are hyped up to be.

I have no idea why you would insist that a big trade is not at all feasible, and that there are no assets. It's a bit nutty. If the team is that shitty then you will be happy to see your lottery pick come along. I don't think they are that shitty, and if they can gain a solid defensive identity that they will achieve enough to take steps to further improvement.

Just read your post back to yourself. You are so concerned about washing a season down the drain by winning, because a couple of players you do not seem to think capable of amounting to much, might leave. That's just bizarro-world stuff. Masai knows he has assets. He knows he can't just toss them away for nothing. He knows he can make timely deals that make sense. And he knows he can build a team, beginning with some winning. They have players that want to win. Let's see what they can do. There is a path laid out for them. It's uphill a fair bit, but over the long term, those that stay on that path will find it starts to roll downhill in some good stretches, well beyond two fucking home games in the playoffs.

I mean - I get your obsessions, but the pure contempt for the idea of winning is beyond me. And it bores me. If this team does lose, then you and a few others can have a ball here all on your own. I know that I for one will look to get league pass so I can watch some other teams and enjoy watching the game of basketball.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 05:12 PM   #16 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,076
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
Start winning. Keep winning. For a long time. Somewhere along the way they might win enough. It's your basic pattern for success throughout all of sports. But here we get guys being snarky and condescending when the idea of starting to win is presented. Must lose.

Oh - can someone please offer the great off-season reading that illustrates options as to how this team is going to manage to lose enough to make that worthwhile?
And aside from looking for a fight, once again, by using qualifiers like "snarky and condescending", you once again resorted to repeating the mantra, instead of actually providing a shred of evidence that it's possible to build a contending team this way in the city outside of NY, LA or Miami.

As for how one manages to lose enough games - look at what Boston is doing, for instance. They've unloaded all their vets, they will keep Rondo on the shelf for as long as humanly possible, making sure he "fully rehabilitates", and they will end up with another franchise caliber player next summer. That's how it's done.
MikeToronto is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 05:14 PM   #17 (permalink)
If I ruled the world...

Sippin' On Myself
 
KoolAid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Yes
Posts: 3,625
Representing:
Default

If you really think I don't want this team to win, I assure you I only suggest tanking as a strategy towards becoming a winning team. Nobody in their right mind would want to just tank repeatedly with no intentions of ever making the playoffs. What you're suggesting sounds very treadmill-y to me. That can go two ways, either we get very lucky and get a young star from a team in a smaller market like houston did, or we're stuck stockpiling assets at the 9th seed like Milwaukee has been doing.

I don't understand how you can seriously say high draft picks can not be depended on, especially in a draft as stacked as next year's. Virtually all of the best players in the league are drafted in the top 5. Sure you occasionally draft a bust, but with Masai: Talent evaluator extraordinaire, I trust we'll be better in those situations. It's a fact that the higher someone is drafted, the more likely the player is to be drafted. Obviously there are outliers.

My view on this team is that, except Jonas and probably Amir too, our core guys are overpaid or expiring. Rudy might be both, Lowry is expiring, and the general view on DeMar around the league is that he's overpaid. These are not exactly great assets. Ross could fetch some value but nothing too big. It's not that we suck, it's that the guys don't have much trade value.

Masai knows that Rudy and Lowry could both leave and he will want to maximize value. How he does that is up to him.
KoolAid is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 05:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
chillin like a gremlin

Senior Member
 
bigmandinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 749
Representing:
Default

7th Seed Plus the 16th Overall pick would be awesome. If anything that could mean getting a more NBA Ready/Experienced player and less of a project, despite having less upside. FA generally tend to sign with winning teams, so this could only help us - even if we dont have very much cap space next season. Guys like James McAdoo, Isaiah Austin, and Mitch McGary are pretty damn intruiging IMO. Not to mention some hot prospects who could potentially fall like a James Young, Andrew Harrisson, etc.

People are acting like Ross, Demar, and JV have already reached their prime or something. I honestly expect Amir, Rudy, Lowry, and Hansbrough to improve as well.

Last edited by bigmandinky; 08-12-2013 at 05:23 PM.
bigmandinky is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 05:36 PM   #19 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 81,351
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmandinky View Post
7th Seed Plus the 16th Overall pick would be awesome. If anything that could mean getting a more NBA Ready/Experienced player and less of a project, despite having less upside. FA generally tend to sign with winning teams, so this could only help us - even if we dont have very much cap space next season. Guys like James McAdoo, Isaiah Austin, and Mitch McGary are pretty damn intruiging IMO. Not to mention some hot prospects who could potentially fall like a James Young, Andrew Harrisson, etc.

People are acting like Ross, Demar, and JV have already reached their prime or something. I honestly expect Amir, Rudy, Lowry, and Hansbrough to improve as well.
And turning #16 + an asset (Ross?) into say #12 I could see Ujiri really going after hard.
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 05:46 PM   #20 (permalink)
LX
effin' ineffable

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 30,572
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
And aside from looking for a fight, once again, by using qualifiers like "snarky and condescending", you once again resorted to repeating the mantra, instead of actually providing a shred of evidence that it's possible to build a contending team this way in the city outside of NY, LA or Miami.

As for how one manages to lose enough games - look at what Boston is doing, for instance. They've unloaded all their vets, they will keep Rondo on the shelf for as long as humanly possible, making sure he "fully rehabilitates", and they will end up with another franchise caliber player next summer. That's how it's done.
yawn. You appear to be the one looking for a fight. Or rather insist that your viewpoint is the only one that can be considered as something other than "magical", leading to something "treadmilly", or filled with "mantras". I didn't think you were being particularly snarky or condescending, but you do feed right into the whole attitude.

Again - I can see your angle. What I don't get is the pure obsessiveness that requires blinders when other viewpoints are brought into play. You seem to suggest you have guarantees for success, while other avenues virtually guarantee a lack of success. Big yawn. Big big yawn. No fists. Just a big yawner.

Boston has vets, and they will still play hard, and might end up with another franchise caliber player. I'm not sure why they would need to keep a guy that was drafted so low from playing in order to lose in any case. Seems a little off. Boston also found themselves in a very different place than the Raptors, so I am not seeing how their example equates all that well. You can be sure they will not veer wildly from from instilling a team identity that entails competitiveness. That's exactly what this franchise needs to grab ahold of for the first time ever, if they intend to move forward. Toronto has nothing like Boston's storied past. It's time to try to write the opening sentence to something that might at least seem worth turning a page or two on for now.

Where are the high draft picks on the Pacers? We will draft picks here. We can use current assets, which exist, we can pick up some free agents that fit nicely at some point, and we can look to get better bit by bit over the long term, rather than looking to win it all with a franchise player that may or may not be able to deliver or have the right team built around them, in a short period of time before we get to lose all over again.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24