Sir Charles in Charge - Optimistic outlook - Page 3
Old 08-12-2013, 11:23 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Maybe you should have read the whole sentence:

Doesn't matter if we get the 8th seed and get blown out 4 straight by Miami- it's a step that has to be taken to get better, smarter, more capable of going further.

I'm not banking on injuries. I'm saying that shit happens during the course of an NBA season. You can't grow by losing, and if shit does happen, you need to be ready to take advantage of it. And what if JV is joined by a high draft pick, like the next Bargnani. Or Olowakandi. Or Milicic.
And what if the much more likely scenario occurs which is a top pick being a good player in the league? You're making a lot of assumptions, at least make sure they're likely to occur.
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:33 PM   #42 (permalink)
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And what if the much more likely scenario occurs which is a top pick being a good player in the league? You're making a lot of assumptions, at least make sure they're likely to occur.
The point being, you never really know. In his first year, people thought that Bargnani was a not bad pick. It's too early to be certain in a draft picks first season, and who really wants to wait till the 2016/7 season to find out.

Draft picks aren't all LeBrons, Rose's or Irvings. And if you put a top pick into a losing situation, it takes him even longer to develop- think MK-G. I'd much rather add a 12th pick into a playoff team, than add a 2nd pick to a twelfth or thirteenth place team.
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:46 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I don't believe the Draft is that great ever. Looking at drafts from 2010 to 2006 (Did not count 11 or 12 as things can change with them) not that many franchise players have actually showed up in the top 12 picks. 2010 has Wall, Favors, Cousins, Monroe (Maybe) and George, 5 of 12. 2009 has Griffin, Harden, Rubio (Maybe), Curry and Jennings (Maybe), 5 of 12. 2008 has Rose, Westbrook, Love and Lopez (Maybe), 4 of 12. 2007 has Durant, Horford, Conley (Maybe), Noah (Maybe), 4 of 12. 2006 has Aldridge and Gay (Maybe), 2 of 12.

So in total there are maybe 20 franchise type players out of a total of 60 "top picks" and even a lot of those players are more number twos than ones. It is quite possible that only 12 of those picks are actually franchise changers. To me those odds suck and if keeping a losing culture like Sacramento and getting picks and getting lucky once is the way we go I will be depressed. I would much rather show we are trying to win and show players and agents that TO is a great culture and then use our assets to trade for other overpaid/disgruntled players and maybe win for a while and get players to sign here. They are both risky but I would rather have a winning culture.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:05 AM   #44 (permalink)
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I don't believe the Draft is that great ever. Looking at drafts from 2010 to 2006 (Did not count 11 or 12 as things can change with them) not that many franchise players have actually showed up in the top 12 picks. 2010 has Wall, Favors, Cousins, Monroe (Maybe) and George, 5 of 12. 2009 has Griffin, Harden, Rubio (Maybe), Curry and Jennings (Maybe), 5 of 12. 2008 has Rose, Westbrook, Love and Lopez (Maybe), 4 of 12. 2007 has Durant, Horford, Conley (Maybe), Noah (Maybe), 4 of 12. 2006 has Aldridge and Gay (Maybe), 2 of 12.

So in total there are maybe 20 franchise type players out of a total of 60 "top picks" and even a lot of those players are more number twos than ones. It is quite possible that only 12 of those picks are actually franchise changers. To me those odds suck and if keeping a losing culture like Sacramento and getting picks and getting lucky once is the way we go I will be depressed. I would much rather show we are trying to win and show players and agents that TO is a great culture and then use our assets to trade for other overpaid/disgruntled players and maybe win for a while and get players to sign here. They are both risky but I would rather have a winning culture.
It would be all cool, but this draft is most likely going to the best in last 10 years (some say even better than 2003). So if you are going to tank now is the time..
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:14 AM   #45 (permalink)
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It would be all cool, but this draft is most likely going to the best in last 10 years (some say even better than 2003). So if you are going to tank now is the time..
Even that draft only had 4 franchise players if you count Bosh which I don't so only 3 of 12. The only way it matters is if you get the #1, outside of that the odds suck.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:27 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by niggles View Post
Maybe you should have read the whole sentence:

Doesn't matter if we get the 8th seed and get blown out 4 straight by Miami- it's a step that has to be taken to get better, smarter, more capable of going further.

I'm not banking on injuries. I'm saying that shit happens during the course of an NBA season. You can't grow by losing, and if shit does happen, you need to be ready to take advantage of it. And what if JV is joined by a high draft pick, like the next Bargnani. Or Olowakandi. Or Milicic.
It's a step when you have pieces to build with. As of right now we have JV and Ross, only one of which you can say is a good enough piece.

Yeah bro! What if we bust out guys? Let's not bank on the draft ever again.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:31 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Odds don't suck if you tank hard enough, bottom 4 teams has very good odds.

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Old 08-13-2013, 12:32 AM   #48 (permalink)
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This fanbase has really been beaten down over the years.... to the point where most are straight-up delusional IMO. Every season it's the same thing.... root for the team for 15-20 games and then if they're under .500 at that point write off the season and start looking at the draft... praying that we end up with the next Lebron. It's pathetic.

If this franchise is ever going to be taken seriously it's going to have to start with a massive culture change and a commitment to WINNING. No tanking for the next big thing.... WINNING. Showing fans and opposing teams that there's some toughness on the floor.... showing our players that they're being held accountable to perform at their best from star to 12th man on the bench.

You have to learn to walk before you can run.... and to this point we've been doing nothing but crawling.

I don't know about anyone else but a first round exit would be a GREAT success for this team and would bode well for the future. We could do worse then emulating the IND model.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:42 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
This fanbase has really been beaten down over the years.... to the point where most are straight-up delusional IMO. Every season it's the same thing.... root for the team for 15-20 games and then if they're under .500 at that point write off the season and start looking at the draft... praying that we end up with the next Lebron. It's pathetic.

If this franchise is ever going to be taken seriously it's going to have to start with a massive culture change and a commitment to WINNING. No tanking for the next big thing.... WINNING. Showing fans and opposing teams that there's some toughness on the floor.... showing our players that they're being held accountable to perform at their best from star to 12th man on the bench.

You have to learn to walk before you can run.... and to this point we've been doing nothing but crawling.

I don't know about anyone else but a first round exit would be a GREAT success for this team and would bode well for the future. We could do worse then emulating the IND model.
First round exit Rudy opts out. Lowry doesn't resign and a 12th pick would be amazing.. winning culture worked great for us last couple of years didn't it?
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:43 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KyleB View Post
I don't believe the Draft is that great ever. Looking at drafts from 2010 to 2006 (Did not count 11 or 12 as things can change with them) not that many franchise players have actually showed up in the top 12 picks. 2010 has Wall, Favors, Cousins, Monroe (Maybe) and George, 5 of 12. 2009 has Griffin, Harden, Rubio (Maybe), Curry and Jennings (Maybe), 5 of 12. 2008 has Rose, Westbrook, Love and Lopez (Maybe), 4 of 12. 2007 has Durant, Horford, Conley (Maybe), Noah (Maybe), 4 of 12. 2006 has Aldridge and Gay (Maybe), 2 of 12.

So in total there are maybe 20 franchise type players out of a total of 60 "top picks" and even a lot of those players are more number twos than ones. It is quite possible that only 12 of those picks are actually franchise changers. To me those odds suck and if keeping a losing culture like Sacramento and getting picks and getting lucky once is the way we go I will be depressed. I would much rather show we are trying to win and show players and agents that TO is a great culture and then use our assets to trade for other overpaid/disgruntled players and maybe win for a while and get players to sign here. They are both risky but I would rather have a winning culture.
Why the top 12? What an arbitrary number. Nobody is expecting to get a star at 12th. I suggest you redo this list only looking at the top 5, then rethink that last paragraph.
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Old 08-13-2013, 02:57 AM   #51 (permalink)
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All this yelling.... And still not a single example of a contending team built in any way other than through the draft in cities outside of the desirable destinations I've mentioned.

You guys can dislike my posts all you want. You can argue about the tone or the attitude. You want to win, sure, I get it. Have fun. Just don't pretend there is a rational argument here, please.
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:13 AM   #52 (permalink)
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All this yelling.... And still not a single example of a contending team built in any way other than through the draft in cities outside of the desirable destinations I've mentioned.

You guys can dislike my posts all you want. You can argue about the tone or the attitude. You want to win, sure, I get it. Have fun. Just don't pretend there is a rational argument here, please.
+1.

The most annoying thing is when guys are so dismissive and just go "lol we have rudy and demar we're not tanking bro".
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:32 AM   #53 (permalink)
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All this yelling.... And still not a single example of a contending team built in any way other than through the draft in cities outside of the desirable destinations I've mentioned.

You guys can dislike my posts all you want. You can argue about the tone or the attitude. You want to win, sure, I get it. Have fun. Just don't pretend there is a rational argument here, please.
<3
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Old 08-13-2013, 05:56 AM   #54 (permalink)
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It's sad to see that this board has come down to nothing but tank vs nontank discussions, if you can even call them discussions at all... I know it's the offseason and all but still, it's pretty pathetic.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:57 AM   #55 (permalink)
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It's sad to see that this board has come down to nothing but tank vs nontank discussions, if you can even call them discussions at all... I know it's the offseason and all but still, it's pretty pathetic.
why so, it's a critical decision that will affect the next 5-8 years of this franchise. It was a topic brought up by both TL and MU in their first interviews this summer.

The wrong choice may doom us to another half decade of mediocrity.
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:00 AM   #56 (permalink)
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speaking of wrong choices, one other argument for tanking is that it's less risky. Tanking is more painful, but, with good management, you're almost guaranteed to come out of it strong in a few years. Sticking with this group may have us in 2 years time in a worse spot than we are now and we'd still have to go in rebuilding.
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:00 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
This fanbase has really been beaten down over the years.... to the point where most are straight-up delusional IMO. Every season it's the same thing.... root for the team for 15-20 games and then if they're under .500 at that point write off the season and start looking at the draft... praying that we end up with the next Lebron. It's pathetic.

If this franchise is ever going to be taken seriously it's going to have to start with a massive culture change and a commitment to WINNING. No tanking for the next big thing.... WINNING. Showing fans and opposing teams that there's some toughness on the floor.... showing our players that they're being held accountable to perform at their best from star to 12th man on the bench.

You have to learn to walk before you can run.... and to this point we've been doing nothing but crawling.

I don't know about anyone else but a first round exit would be a GREAT success for this team and would bode well for the future. We could do worse then emulating the IND model.
well, TL and MU haven't been here for the past years, and still publicly admitted they are at least considering tanking. So there goes your argument ...
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:05 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Even that draft only had 4 franchise players if you count Bosh which I don't so only 3 of 12. The only way it matters is if you get the #1, outside of that the odds suck.
but that's the wrong approach. Even if you don't get a superstar like lebron, through the draft you can get all stars at bargain level prices. Would you rather have Bosh at 3 mil/yr for 4 seasons and 16/yr at 4-5 more, or gay at 19/yr?

Having good young players on rookie contracts achieves two major things: gives you outstanding value for your dollars + massive cap space that you can use to sign free agents.

IMO, while the most glaring issue for this team is the lack of a superstar, almost as big of an issue is that lack of cheap rookie contracts. Building a winning team without at least a couple if not more strong rookie contracts is impossible unless you attract multiple hall of famers, while teams without a superstar have at least won at title in the past 20 years, as rare as that may be.
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:50 AM   #59 (permalink)
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why so, it's a critical decision that will affect the next 5-8 years of this franchise. It was a topic brought up by both TL and MU in their first interviews this summer.
Indeed, but don't worry, you don't have to burden yourself with this dilemma, TL and MU get paid millions to figure it out for you. And btw you know as well as I that they're not reading this forum so there's no need to defend the tank as furiously as you have in the past few months (or years?)

Just sit back and relax.

I also get the impression a couple of posters here think they can predict the future or something. Newsflash: you can't.

Last edited by ZanTheMan; 08-13-2013 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:06 AM   #60 (permalink)
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I also get the impression a couple of posters here think they can predict the future or something. Newsflash: you can't.
That's what you think..

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