Sir Charles in Charge - Optimistic outlook - Page 2
Old 08-12-2013, 05:46 PM   #21 (permalink)
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sounds like you guys just want to move a little bit higher into mediocrity. im down with tim leiweke's no 7-11 and sometimes you have to get worse to get better.
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:05 PM   #22 (permalink)
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... and that's being optimistic, just above .500.

Great posts btw, MikeToronto.
This argument's been made too many times, they just don't get it.
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:05 PM   #23 (permalink)
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And turning #16 + an asset (Ross?) into say #12 I could see Ujiri really going after hard.
omg LOL so this is what we're resorting to.
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:22 PM   #24 (permalink)
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omg LOL so this is what we're resorting to.
Not resorting to anything. I'd rather make the playoffs and get #17 then not make the playoffs and get #12
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:44 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I'd rather get a top 5 pick than either of those, but that's besides the point.
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:47 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Start winning. Keep winning. For a long time. Somewhere along the way they might win enough. It's your basic pattern for success throughout all of sports. But here we get guys being snarky and condescending when the idea of starting to win is presented. Must lose.

Oh - can someone please offer the great off-season reading that illustrates options as to how this team is going to manage to lose enough to make that worthwhile?
+1
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Old 08-12-2013, 07:22 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Start winning. Keep winning. For a long time. Somewhere along the way they might win enough. It's your basic pattern for success throughout all of sports. But here we get guys being snarky and condescending when the idea of starting to win is presented. Must lose.

Oh - can someone please offer the great off-season reading that illustrates options as to how this team is going to manage to lose enough to make that worthwhile?
Great post mate.
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Old 08-12-2013, 07:39 PM   #28 (permalink)
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... and that's being optimistic, just above .500.

Great posts btw, MikeToronto.
This argument's been made too many times, they just don't get it.
Bravo. Please talk of us as though we are children. It's so endearing. This is exactly what I meant by condescending. It is possible to have both sides argued without resorting to dismissing the other side entirely as being incapable of the required intelligence and brilliance of your side's thinking. Funny how the guys in charge are not so capable following that right path.

And anyway - even though I'm happy to be a grumpy old anti-tanker, and could aim to be the greatest of all time in that pursuit, it doesn't mean I don't get shit. If this team can't commit to defense as will be required, then I'll be more than happy to see the tank driven into Lake Ontario. I won't be watching it, or thinking about it, or expecting them to do much anytime soon. I sure as hell won't be trying to have a civil argument with people who are entrenched and dismissive. I'll be waiting for someone to wake me up when there is something to care about, and that would be the possibility of winning 50 for once. Like there is now, though I recognize 40 is just as likely. It's still nice to think there is a shot, at least until they play for a few weeks.
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Old 08-12-2013, 07:39 PM   #29 (permalink)
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stay winning path doesnt always work out. denver barely gets out of the first round, it also never panned out for atlanta. in the nba you should either be competing for a championship or sucking. that middle range is just a useless treadmill that teams should try to get off. and the Raptors would be on the lower half of that treadmill.

i dont want to be atlanta. but i think even their ceiling was higher than ours is.
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Old 08-12-2013, 07:55 PM   #30 (permalink)
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stay winning path doesnt always work out. denver barely gets out of the first round, it also never panned out for atlanta. in the nba you should either be competing for a championship or sucking. that middle range is just a useless treadmill that teams should try to get off. and the Raptors would be on the lower half of that treadmill.

i dont want to be atlanta. but i think even their ceiling was higher than ours is.
I really disagree with that. And if I didn't I would find the sport so depressing I wouldn't watch it.
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:06 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Atlanta did a terrible job of developing new talent, and stuck with their roster, particularly Smith, way too long. They could have had a much better blueprint. They didn't try to do much more than throw a bunch of stars together and put the pressure on the coach to make it work. I don't think Leiweke would allow this team to operate like that.
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:24 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Start winning. Keep winning. For a long time. Somewhere along the way they might win enough. It's your basic pattern for success throughout all of sports. But here we get guys being snarky and condescending when the idea of starting to win is presented. Must lose.

Oh - can someone please offer the great off-season reading that illustrates options as to how this team is going to manage to lose enough to make that worthwhile?
You lost me here, are you implying that the solution to get better is to win more games? That is NOT the solution, that is the problem .... it's like saying the solution to get rich is to start making money and then make more money. Sure, great idea, now how exactly are we going to accomplish this. Which was my question.

I find it funny that every time I ask the simple question of how are we going to improve without blowing things up, I either a variation of the "well, it's obvious", or some generic answer.

I don't want to tank because I enjoy losing a ton of games. It's exactly because I can't think of any plausible scenario of improving this team otherwise. If anybody has some ideas, I'd love to hear them.
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:51 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Those ideas have been shared moremilk. And if you were not so quick to suggest that they haven't, I'd be happy to share them again. I think this team is in a position to win games now. I might have said fifty times already that it will require establishing a defensive identity. So there - I humoured you a little. And I would suggest that instead of blowing it up if the defense doesn't get it done right away, they might try to trade a culprit or two for strong two-way players. Playing the right way is going to set them up for a good chance at future success. I think the payoff comes next season. But if not, then smart moves and a decent draft pick will get something going. I just don't see where they need to hit a wall and just leave Jonas starting from scratch, and likely faltering with too much on his shoulders.
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:48 PM   #34 (permalink)
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TL said point blank, echoed by MU, that the plan was to " build a culture of winning"

You've got to win to do that, and they want to start now. Doesn't matter if we get the 8th seed and get blown out 4 straight by Miami- it's a step that has to be taken to get better, smarter, more capable of going further. Now is the time, not taking a step backward to find ourselves in the same situation in 2 years time. Winning breeds winning. No-one knows what will happen in season. What if Lebron blows out a knee in March? What if Paul George suffers a concussion? What if age catches up to KG and Pierce. What if Detroit has guards in name only? What if Josh Smith plays SF like he did in the past? And we can't make any progress because we're trying to tank? If we start to win some games and start building a team personality, it's easier to hold on to your players and become more attractive to FA's. That's a culture of winning.
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:48 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Those ideas have been shared moremilk. And if you were not so quick to suggest that they haven't, I'd be happy to share them again. I think this team is in a position to win games now. I might have said fifty times already that it will require establishing a defensive identity. So there - I humoured you a little. And I would suggest that instead of blowing it up if the defense doesn't get it done right away, they might try to trade a culprit or two for strong two-way players. Playing the right way is going to set them up for a good chance at future success. I think the payoff comes next season. But if not, then smart moves and a decent draft pick will get something going. I just don't see where they need to hit a wall and just leave Jonas starting from scratch, and likely faltering with too much on his shoulders.
Assuming they do establish a defensive identity, what about the offense? Our lack of talent and lack of cap space to retain and build on said talent? It doesn't matter which way you look at it. This core will not contend with the other team's talents unless they do the impossible. You also suggest trading our not-so-good defensive players for strong two-way players as if some sucker would bite. What is a smart move? You cannot just bank on the GM to pull a rabbit out of his ass and land some top talent to take us over the top with the given circumstances. We need to start from the bottom and this is the year to do it.

I apologize for any signs of condescension.
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:53 PM   #36 (permalink)
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TL said point blank, echoed by MU, that the plan was to " build a culture of winning"

You've got to win to do that, and they want to start now. Doesn't matter if we get the 8th seed and get blown out 4 straight by Miami- it's a step that has to be taken to get better, smarter, more capable of going further. Now is the time, not taking a step backward to find ourselves in the same situation in 2 years time. Winning breeds winning. No-one knows what will happen in season. What if Lebron blows out a knee in March? What if Paul George suffers a concussion? What if age catches up to KG and Pierce. What if Detroit has guards in name only? What if Josh Smith plays SF like he did in the past? And we can't make any progress because we're trying to tank? If we start to win some games and start building a team personality, it's easier to hold on to your players and become more attractive to FA's. That's a culture of winning.
Except that's not winning. If you want to pull out quotes I can also state that Leiweke and Masai's goal is championship, and getting out of our handcuff situation and starting with a great piece like JV and a high draft pick is an intriguing start. What kind of argument is that when you bank on injuries to top teams as well as what ifs?
I don't guarantee success nor championships with the tanking route but there is damn sure a brighter light at the end of the tunnel going that route than to go for 8th place.
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:59 PM   #37 (permalink)
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TL said point blank, echoed by MU, that the plan was to " build a culture of winning"

You've got to win to do that, and they want to start now. Doesn't matter if we get the 8th seed and get blown out 4 straight by Miami- it's a step that has to be taken to get better, smarter, more capable of going further. Now is the time, not taking a step backward to find ourselves in the same situation in 2 years time. Winning breeds winning. No-one knows what will happen in season. What if Lebron blows out a knee in March? What if Paul George suffers a concussion? What if age catches up to KG and Pierce. What if Detroit has guards in name only? What if Josh Smith plays SF like he did in the past? And we can't make any progress because we're trying to tank? If we start to win some games and start building a team personality, it's easier to hold on to your players and become more attractive to FA's. That's a culture of winning.
TL also said we may have to suck to do well, and no 7-11. He's all over the place. I don't know if you consider getting swept to be winning, but I don't.

Those are a lot of what ifs. What if Lowry gets hurt again? Are we going to start DJ or Buycks? Hah. What if Val gets hurt? Are we going to depend on Gray playing big minutes? What if the eye surgery was a bunch of BS and Rudy is the same as always? I don't know if you realized, but if we're keeping this core we're not going to be a big FA destination because we will have no cap space.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:05 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Except that's not winning. If you want to pull out quotes I can also state that Leiweke and Masai's goal is championship, and getting out of our handcuff situation and starting with a great piece like JV and a high draft pick is an intriguing start. What kind of argument is that when you bank on injuries to top teams as well as what ifs?
I don't guarantee success nor championships with the tanking route but there is damn sure a brighter light at the end of the tunnel going that route than to go for 8th place.
Maybe you should have read the whole sentence:

Doesn't matter if we get the 8th seed and get blown out 4 straight by Miami- it's a step that has to be taken to get better, smarter, more capable of going further.

I'm not banking on injuries. I'm saying that shit happens during the course of an NBA season. You can't grow by losing, and if shit does happen, you need to be ready to take advantage of it. And what if JV is joined by a high draft pick, like the next Bargnani. Or Olowakandi. Or Milicic.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:07 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Those ideas have been shared moremilk. And if you were not so quick to suggest that they haven't, I'd be happy to share them again. I think this team is in a position to win games now. I might have said fifty times already that it will require establishing a defensive identity. So there - I humoured you a little. And I would suggest that instead of blowing it up if the defense doesn't get it done right away, they might try to trade a culprit or two for strong two-way players. Playing the right way is going to set them up for a good chance at future success. I think the payoff comes next season. But if not, then smart moves and a decent draft pick will get something going. I just don't see where they need to hit a wall and just leave Jonas starting from scratch, and likely faltering with too much on his shoulders.
yeah, they have been, but as I said - they are generic things. Like now you say trading a culprit for a a strong two-way player. Well that's not going to happen, save for a miracle trade. Strong two-way players don't grow on trees and most teams will not trade such a player for a no-defense unidimensional guy. Non-lottery picks very rarely become stars and even when they do, they take a lot longer than lottery picks to achieve success.

And the situation next season will not get any better, especially if we actually end up making the playoffs and, worse case scenario, gay actually has an all star season. If gay and lowry have great years, we'll either have to pay them about the same salary (combined), or trade them (for presumably fairly similar players) or let them walk (and end up with nothing AND no cap space).

So this is my problem, I would like to be optimistic about the future on the premise that MU will be able to trade demar or lowry for a strong two way player like AI, but I can't. It's not that it never happened, because it did. But if I'm banking on a very low probability item, I'd rather bank on wining the lottery, the payoff is so much higher.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:15 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Maybe you should have read the whole sentence:

Doesn't matter if we get the 8th seed and get blown out 4 straight by Miami- it's a step that has to be taken to get better, smarter, more capable of going further.

I'm not banking on injuries. I'm saying that shit happens during the course of an NBA season. You can't grow by losing, and if shit does happen, you need to be ready to take advantage of it. And what if JV is joined by a high draft pick, like the next Bargnani. Or Olowakandi. Or Milicic.
you seem to assume that winning a title is a succession of steps that must be taken. It's not. While making the playoffs is a requirement, making the playoffs too early may not be "a" step, it may be your final step.
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