SI slams Bargnani - Page 4
Old 03-25-2011, 03:12 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I'd like to see a list of guys that regularly get 20+ shots up and make less than 11 mill
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Old 03-25-2011, 03:21 PM   #62 (permalink)
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i'd love to see a list of guys that score 20+ per game and makes less than $11 mil per. and i'd love to look at that list and see how many of those guys are 2-way players with a varied skill set.
i don't understand why comparisons are made here...
by making this comparisons with other players your creating an excuse and a way to show that Bargnani isn't so bad, but really, he should be trying to be the best he can be. and we all know that this isn't his best.

if the situation today was that Bargnani played with heart and put in the effort and the results are what they are today, then we can conclude that he's peaked, this is Bargs at his best.
but thats not the case. his lack of effort leaves us to wonder how good can he actually be. maybe this is it? or maybe he can be better. we don't know

an example is like, someone who's smart and has the ability to get 95% in school, but doesn't put in the work and only gets 80%. but its ok cuz class average is 75%
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Old 03-25-2011, 03:30 PM   #63 (permalink)
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i don't understand why comparisons are made here...
by making this comparisons with other players your creating an excuse and a way to show that Bargnani isn't so bad, but really, he should be trying to be the best he can be. and we all know that this isn't his best.

if the situation today was that Bargnani played with heart and put in the effort and the results are what they are today, then we can conclude that he's peaked, this is Bargs at his best.
but thats not the case. his lack of effort leaves us to wonder how good can he actually be. maybe this is it? or maybe he can be better. we don't know

an example is like, someone who's smart and has the ability to get 95% in school, but doesn't put in the work and only gets 80%. but its ok cuz class average is 75%
Except that there are other classes, other programs, other schools... where the NBA is clearly the best of the best. The fact that one can compare AB to others, sometimes favourably and sometimes not, is a testament to his overall positive growth as a player. Seems like you only want to bash him, yet fail to realize all other teams have issues with every player on their roster. Even Dwight can be criticized.... but doesn't mean they should trade him.
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Old 03-25-2011, 03:42 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Except that there are other classes, other programs, other schools... where the NBA is clearly the best of the best. The fact that one can compare AB to others, sometimes favourably and sometimes not, is a testament to his overall positive growth as a player. Seems like you only want to bash him, yet fail to realize all other teams have issues with every player on their roster. Even Dwight can be criticized.... but doesn't mean they should trade him.
the reason the comparison was originally made was to point out that Bargs is not under achieving. and i have an issue with that.
that essentially says that theres nothing wrong with where Bargs is at as a player. and i think even you wouldn't be satisfied if this is Bargs at his best.
and ur right. every player has their faults, but how many are inconsistancies due to lack of effort?
also, i said nothing about trading him. although i would not miss him at all if he was gone
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Old 03-25-2011, 03:58 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Let's get back to the point of this thread. The Raptors are giving up a huge number of points in the paint. Now that isn't all on Bargnani, but a good deal of it is. If you haven't seen teams going straight at him, even with guys that usually do not put up numbers, then you're missing something. And the help defense is simply horrible. You're just not going to see much resistence with this guy on the court. That's a pretty big issue that scoring might fix if the guy truly had a skillset that made other guys better and helped the offense succeed. But he doesn't get assists, does get a good number of turnovers, doesn't get offensive boards, and doesn't even score efficiently. That makes it very hard to make up for all the deficiencies at the other end.

So he doesn't get paid enough to be a two-way wonderchild? Y'know that would work with me if the guy could simply be a rudimentary defensive player that could do more than be a spectator. Not being good enough to be labelled a two way player is one thing. Automatically hurting your team's ability to get stops is another. If your team has to work like a motherfucker on the defensive end to have any kind of chance at success, then your team is going to have a hell of a time during the marathon of an NBA season.

There could be solutions whereby he takes on a smaller role and plays with guys that work like a motherfucker. But with a smaller role where he takes fewer shots, unless he becomes much more efficient, there's just no overall benefit. If anything he needs to take on a bigger role and be surrounded entirely with 2-way players. I still think you want your bigs to be able to play good enough defensively to be in the right position most of the time and be aware of where the ball and their man is simultaneously, thereby giving them at least a chance of having some impact on that end. So even in that scenario, it doesn't seem ideal at all. I can live with the guy for the time being, but it's extremely hard not to see the need to swap his offense for some defense at some point.

Mike James scored 20+ and wanted 6million. That idea didn't fly. The most important concern has to be fitting all the pieces together. Andrea is going to stand out as a guy that just doesn't fit unless he can start to contribute to keeping some of the terrible defensive numbers down.
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:06 PM   #66 (permalink)
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My point of view is that this team has on his roster a 22\5.5 PF making 10\year. To me it doesn't sound bad enough to generate all this willingness to trade him.
We can discuss about the fact that a team filled with bad\average defenders puts the worst one in the most important defensive position. It doesn't sound too clever.

What about gettin rid of Amir (oh, given that age doesn't count as somebody stated, he's as much of a veteran as Andrea), acquire a C, move Bargs to PF with Reggie and Ed backing them up? To me it sounds much more reasonable.
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:11 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Making Ed Davis a backup is not the best idea I've ever heard. And having a weak link at the PF spot isn't incredibly helpful. I'd much prefer to see two bigs that are good to very good defenders.
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:20 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Making Ed Davis a backup is not the best idea I've ever heard. And having a weak link at the PF spot isn't incredibly helpful. I'd much prefer to see two bigs that are good to very good defenders.
It's still up in the air as to how good of a defender Davis is, as well as Amir, if forced to play against bigger bodies. Thus far they haven't shown capable of it either. Size is a major asset in this league and it takes time to be able to shoulder the load.

I'm not advocating trading any of them, but if you can get another 7' C capable of playing minutes then you look into it. Ajinca and Alabi are not answers but AB, Davis and Amir are all still developing..... yes, even AB.
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:31 PM   #69 (permalink)
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It's still up in the air as to how good of a defender Davis is, as well as Amir, if forced to play against bigger bodies. Thus far they haven't shown capable of it either. Size is a major asset in this league and it takes time to be able to shoulder the load.

I'm not advocating trading any of them, but if you can get another 7' C capable of playing minutes then you look into it. Ajinca and Alabi are not answers but AB, Davis and Amir are all still developing..... yes, even AB.
There's not that much in the air. As a power foward, with his instincts, and even with his current limited strength, he is a plus. There's no way you are going to want him going up against bigger bodies regularly without adding quite a bit of weight and strength. And I'm not sure you want to see that much weight added, since he does a nice job being able to show hard on the perimeter at his current weight. Adding weight is going to make him less versatile. He's always going to have the length and the solid instincts. I would expect to see improved stamina and athleticism next season. That would make him a starter in my eyes. But then you are going to either ask him to shoulder that heavier load of guarding the biggest guys, or make that work with Andrea. Neither is a great option. Colangelo is going to have to decide whether defense matters, and whether he wants 20 shots coming from a seven-foot jumpshooter going forward.
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:41 PM   #70 (permalink)
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There's not that much in the air. As a power foward, with his instincts, and even with his current limited strength, he is a plus. There's no way you are going to want him going up against bigger bodies regularly without adding quite a bit of weight and strength. And I'm not sure you want to see that much weight added, since he does a nice job being able to show hard on the perimeter at his current weight. Adding weight is going to make him less versatile. He's always going to have the length and the solid instincts. I would expect to see improved stamina and athleticism next season. That would make him a starter in my eyes. But then you are going to either ask him to shoulder that heavier load of guarding the biggest guys, or make that work with Andrea. Neither is a great option. Colangelo is going to have to decide whether defense matters, and whether he wants 20 shots coming from a seven-foot jumpshooter going forward.
Is it possible that AB is more of a jumpshooter because of where the offensive system is placing him for many of the sets? This team lacks substantial three point threats to draw the defence out, and AB is often out on the perimeter because of that. His post game has improved, and his jumpshots inside the paint are pretty damn accurate and consistent. Where he struggles is inside the 3 line......

Solution? Would it help to have more three point threats so that AB doesn't get used as much as one? I'm absolutely not advocating bringing in shooters, but rather solid players that have legitimate range. Derrick Williams anyone? Harrison Barnes? Guys that can defend, and shoot consistently... have length and size. Love JJ, but he can still be a big part too.

Any merit to this? Maybe AB would be more of a post force and rebounding presence if not so necessarily needed to open up the offensive side of the court.

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Old 03-25-2011, 04:53 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Is it possible that AB is more of a jumpshooter because of where the offensive system is placing him for many of the sets? This team lacks substantial three point threats to draw the defence out, and AB is often out on the perimeter because of that. His post game has improved, and his jumpshots inside the paint are pretty damn accurate and consistent. Where he struggles is inside the 3 line......

Solution? Would it help to have more three point threats so that AB doesn't get used as much as one? I'm absolutely not advocating bringing in shooters, but rather solid players that have legitimate range. Derrick Williams anyone? Harrison Barnes? Guys that can defend, and shoot consistently... have length and size. Love JJ, but he can still be a big part too.

Any merit to this? Maybe AB would be more of a post force and rebounding presence if not so necessarily needed to open up the offensive side of the court.

Only serious and respectful responses required.
i see ur point and its always good to look at both sides of the coin before making a judgement. but i refuse to believe that our offensive system puts Bargnani in a situation to be a jumpshooter. that just makes no sense to me and our offensive set is as freelance as they come.
i believe he just SETTLES for jumpers cuz its much easier then driving to the hoop or banging down low for a tough 2
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Old 03-25-2011, 05:01 PM   #72 (permalink)
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i see ur point and its always good to look at both sides of the coin before making a judgement. but i refuse to believe that our offensive system puts Bargnani in a situation to be a jumpshooter. that just makes no sense to me and our offensive set is as freelance as they come.
i believe he just SETTLES for jumpers cuz its much easier then driving to the hoop or banging down low for a tough 2
yes he settles plenty.... but he's also sitting on the 3 line plenty which allows others to penetrate or work inside. If he can cut down on those long 2's, focus on paint production including those short jumpers inside the paint which he is pretty deadly on, and we have more threats outside like a drafted Barnes or DW and maybe an improved DD, then I think it would make AB a top 20 offensive option in the league.....

Of course my opinion is one of optimism, but I refuse to think a 25 year old can't continue to get better when he has continued to show flashes of growth. I'd advocate not judging so emphatically on the results of individual players in such a terrible environment.
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Old 03-25-2011, 05:03 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I'm sure you didn't just call me stupid.

Keep one thing in mind. Young doesn't = Good.

Toronto has ok young players. No stars.

Bargnani is virtually unstoppable at times. CLEARLY he has motivation issues, but anyone here that thinks he's a bad player is not all that bright.

I pay attention to what opposition says. yes they rip his defence, they also give total props to his ability to mess them p on offence. Why do you think the other stiffs YES STIFFS on this team get any room at all when he's on the floor????
I suppose the million dollar question is whether or not Bargs brings enough to the table OFFENSIVELY to warrant his defensive deficiencies....

I happen to think no.

A lot of people ripped Bosh for his defense last year but I think it's pretty clear now how much he actually did for this team. He was a star and he put up star numbers... he was a guy who you could go to when you needed points down the stretch.

Bargs just isn't. He clearly enjoys shooting the ball but he doesn't actually CARE enough to try to do the little things CONSISTENTLY to win games.

I'm just tired of seeing our guys "follow his lead" and play with ZERO energy on the defensive side of the ball.
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Old 03-25-2011, 05:06 PM   #74 (permalink)
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I suppose the million dollar question is whether or not Bargs brings enough to the table OFFENSIVELY to warrant his defensive deficiencies....

I happen to think no.

A lot of people ripped Bosh for his defense last year but I think it's pretty clear now how much he actually did for this team. He was a star and he put up star numbers... he was a guy who you could go to when you needed points down the stretch.

Bargs just isn't. He clearly enjoys shooting the ball but he doesn't actually CARE enough to try to do the little things CONSISTENTLY to win games.

I'm just tired of seeing our guys "follow his lead" and play with ZERO energy on the defensive side of the ball.
who's following his lead?

and taking the best player off a team that didn't make the playoffs and seeing the team not make the playoffs shows what? If we had a 40 win drop like Cleveland then I'd agree.
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:39 PM   #75 (permalink)
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who's following his lead?

and taking the best player off a team that didn't make the playoffs and seeing the team not make the playoffs shows what? If we had a 40 win drop like Cleveland then I'd agree.
So this team = last year's team simply because neither made the playoffs?

We're looking at a probable drop of 15 wins or so from last season to this. That's fairly significant IMO.

And as for "who's following his lead"? Bargs is considered "one of the vets" now on this squad. He's got 5 years of NBA experience on the 2nd youngest team in the league. Younger players are going take their cues from him... just like they take their cues from Reggie when he's on the floor.
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Old 03-25-2011, 07:41 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Of course my opinion is one of optimism, but I refuse to think a 25 year old can't continue to get better when he has continued to show flashes of growth. I'd advocate not judging so emphatically on the results of individual players in such a terrible environment.
Are those flashes of growth coming defensively because I certainly don't think so. In fact, it just looks like he is getting worse rebounding the ball and defensively.

Big whoop if he is scoring more. He is just scoring more because he has the ball more and chucking up more shots. Hey, someone's gotta score on bad teams, amirite?

The way Bargnani plays defensively, I am really not sure how many points he should be scoring to make up for it but it has to be a lot.

Maybe you're right... maybe if he was in a better environment, he would be better. But, the environment is not going to be much better with Bargnani here and playing at center. At powerforward, we have Amir and Davis. The only solution I can think of is sticking Bargnani at small forward since he can actually play decent one on one defense and that's what he plays like anyways. It would allow the team to get a legit defensive center.
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Old 03-26-2011, 08:35 AM   #77 (permalink)
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2 for 10 for 7 points. zero rebounds. minus 40 in 27 minutes.

And I couldn't figure out who he was guarding. The entire Golden State team seemed to be coming right at him as though he wasn't there. Or he just got out of the way ahead of time.

Points in the Paint - 58. Same old. And yet they gave up the 3's as well.
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Old 03-26-2011, 10:25 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Last night was absolutely disgusting. If you can't grab a rebound against frigging GOLDEN STATE then you should just kill yourself.

Please Lord, lt him be dealt in the off-season. I can't stand another 82 games watching him steal money.
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Old 03-26-2011, 10:38 AM   #79 (permalink)
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ya.

Last night, I didn't see but don't really need to.

Bargs is a bitch.
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Old 03-26-2011, 01:28 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Last night was absolutely disgusting. If you can't grab a rebound against frigging GOLDEN STATE then you should just kill yourself.

Please Lord, lt him be dealt in the off-season. I can't stand another 82 games watching him steal money.
on the bright side, he didn't took any 3s. that's good right? so i think he's improving. cause' i'm pretty sure i saw some statements of how the next-Dirk is going to amend his role once RuPosh departs.
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