SI.com: As Bargnani falls flat, so do the Raptors
Old 02-01-2011, 09:36 PM   #1 (permalink)
landry fields forever

Administrator

 
Acie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 21,593
Representing:
Arrow SI.com: As Bargnani falls flat, so do the Raptors

Quote:
Whether they intended to or not (and they probably didn’t, at least to this degree), the Raptors have hitched a lot of their franchise to Andrea Bargnani. And in the first season that he’s actually had to prove he’s worth top dog status, Bargnani has basically fallen on his face.

So have the Raptors.

They’re competitive, they try hard and they’ve been hit by injuries big and small, but the Raptors have lost 12 straight games, they’ve only won five of their last 30 and they are playing dispiriting hoops on both ends of the floor.
Quote:
But you can’t excuse Bargnani, no matter how badly Evans might want everyone to lay off. Not when Josh McRoberts grabs an offensive rebound on the left side of the rim, sees a 7-foot center in his way and decides, “Hey, I’ll just ram my shoulder into his chest, move him and dunk the ball in his face” (see the 7:41 mark of the third quarter Monday). Not when Jeff Foster, upon seeing a Mike Dunleavy jumper go up, simply slides in front of Bargnani, boxes him out and snags an offensive rebound (see the 3:51 mark of the third quarter). And not when the Raptors’ announce team, proud homers and defenders of Bargnani, are now openly pining for Ed Davis to get more minutes.

If you watch the Raptors, you know these are not isolated things. And it’s the rebounding, of course, that still grates on you. More than halfway through the season, Bargnani is grabbing 5.6 boards per 36 minutes — tied for the worst mark of his career and on pace to be one of the very worst marks a guy at least 6-10 has put up in the entire history of the NBA. Bargnani has rebounded 9.1 percent of all misses while on the floor this season. If you’re not familiar with rebounding percentage, you need to understand how awful that is. Just now — one minute before I wrote this sentence — I closed my eyes and thought of the first random wing player that entered my mind. It was Paul Pierce. But Pierce is a good rebounder for his position, so I started over, thinking the comparison would be unfair.

LINK - SI.com
Acie is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2011, 10:04 PM   #2 (permalink)
LX
with pink peppercorns

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,545
Representing:
Default

it's not even the rebounding, or the defense. How about the shooting well under 30 percent regularly, and putting up fadeaways like they are a good idea for a seven footer.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2011, 10:06 PM   #3 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 72,853
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
it's not even the rebounding, or the defense. How about the shooting well under 30 percent regularly, and putting up fadeaways like they are a good idea for a seven footer.
He's driving less and less as the season goes on and he's shooting 32% from deep....not a good combination on top of his already obvious deficiencies.
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2011, 10:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
x_kaptain_x
is pounding the rock! (Edit)

Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Representing:
Default

It's true though, we'll never be a good team with Bargnani playing the 5, there's too much to hide.
  Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2011, 09:12 AM   #5 (permalink)
LX
with pink peppercorns

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,545
Representing:
Default

There certainly is a lot of noise from the broadcasting crews over the last week or so. I listen to Leo and Jack and Matt even, and I wonder what they were seeing in years past. Do Bargnani's failings just stand out that much more now?

Here's a question - how much of what gets said comes from team management? Did anyone else get the feeling that there were some attempts to make Andrea look larger than life when he was playing well. When the played in New York, Matt threw out the line about Andrea playing on the big stage right at the start of the game, as if a really big game was practically assured and the media had been tipped off to look out for something special. And then those good games get milked for as long as possible even when he's clearly leveled off. Now they really look to be zeroing in on his weaknesses like never before, and I have to wonder if the same attempts to garner fan support have now been abandoned in favor of preparing the fanbase for moving the guy that we were told was going to be the future of the team. If they have decided that he has to go, then it would be better to have most fans feel that it was a positive thing moving forward rather than incur the wrath of those that have drank all the kool-aid before.

Am I just being too wishful?
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2011, 01:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,236
Representing:
Default

imo, Bargnani is a goner
colangelo always shown a willingness to part with his own guys, I don't see why Bargnani would be any different

this season was make or break for andrea, luckily for us he's shown a lot of improvement and I will argue his trade value is as high as ever (assuming he return to his 47% shooting). On the other hand, he's clearly not willing to play like a winner consistently.

It's a shame, because this season more than any other, we saw how good this guy could be if he just wanted to. I think trading him now is fairly safe, the chances of him becoming a superstar in another uniform are very low ...
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2011, 03:53 PM   #7 (permalink)
useless

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,200
Representing:
Default

When Andrea gets tired his shooting percentages nose dive, he gets pushed around in the paint and he doesn't get in position defensively.

IMO, the guy isn't in shape. He's been spending summers with the Italian national team instead of working on his conditioning.

It looks to me like this guy has hit a wall, and that's from playing so hard early in the season, after playing with the Italian team in the summer. His body can't take it, especially since he's a 7 footer.

He needs to be rested and he needs to work on his conditioning in the offseason. Personally, I think Jay is letting him play tired as a substitute for the conditioning he should be doing on his own time.

I still remember how good he has been in the past, and I hope he can take the athletic aspect of his training more seriously and establish consistency in the future.

I can't see him being traded by this organization without getting significant pieces in return, and I don't see other organizations willing to part with what it would take.
EggsToTheBBQ is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2011, 04:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Superjudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,593
Representing:
Default

He doesn't have what it takes to be a pro.

thats what it looks like to me.
Superjudge is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2011, 11:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
kicking himself for being so emotionally invested in the Roller-coaster Raptors

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,458
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
There certainly is a lot of noise from the broadcasting crews over the last week or so. I listen to Leo and Jack and Matt even, and I wonder what they were seeing in years past. Do Bargnani's failings just stand out that much more now?
Here's a question - how much of what gets said comes from team management? Did anyone else get the feeling that there were some attempts to make Andrea look larger than life when he was playing well. When the played in New York, Matt threw out the line about Andrea playing on the big stage right at the start of the game, as if a really big game was practically assured and the media had been tipped off to look out for something special. And then those good games get milked for as long as possible even when he's clearly leveled off. Now they really look to be zeroing in on his weaknesses like never before, and I have to wonder if the same attempts to garner fan support have now been abandoned in favor of preparing the fanbase for moving the guy that we were told was going to be the future of the team. If they have decided that he has to go, then it would be better to have most fans feel that it was a positive thing moving forward rather than incur the wrath of those that have drank all the kool-aid before.

Am I just being too wishful?

Um, yeah it is standing out more now for two reasons. One is the losing streak, two is that Bargs is mired in one of the worst shooting slumps of his career.

Over his last four games, he's shooting 21-74 for a whopping 28% from the field. Read that sentence again!


For the month of January he's at 40.9% . For a big man with a supposedly awesome skillset (primarily to do with shooting and being able to get shots), shooting percentages that awful make him such a complete liability like never before.


The problem with Bargs is that he never does fuck all on the court unless his shot is on; when his shot is off, he's really really really bad. He's a great shooter but he's shooting like shit. He's a great weakside shotblocker but he rarely uses that to his advantage. And he's a horrible rebounder and help defender and that ALWAYS is a problem...

The rebounding was always a huge issue for him; he's gotten double digits exactly once this season (of course we won by a landslide). His help D is the other abomination, that was easier to forgive when he wasn't shooting 28%.

-------

Still, I'm not all for dumping Bargs for nothing - buy high sell low? At least let him play his value back up with some 20 point games again. He's going to rebound from the shooting slump.
BballWatcher is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2011, 11:59 PM   #10 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,047
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BballWatcher View Post

Still, I'm not all for dumping Bargs for nothing - buy high sell low? At least let him play his value back up with some 20 point games again. He's going to rebound from the shooting slump.
Are GMs around the league so easily fooled?

I would say just about everybody knows who he is.
bjjs is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 01:43 AM   #11 (permalink)
the white Shack. true story

Member
 
Shack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 170
Representing:
Default

My take has always been that Andrea is a nice player to have but not a franchise guy and not someone you can count on. He is not Nowitski as everyone was hoping but more like Memet Okur. His rebounding is a huge issue and one that will haunt him his entire career. On a good team he is an asset, on a bad team he sticks out like a sore thumb.

Our problem is BC is married to him. Yes, BC has shown in the past he is willing to trade guys he brought in if they dont work out. However with Bargnani he is his #1 overall pick. If you ship him out you admit complete failure. The fact that the team has been spiraling downwards since BC's first year and his shine has worn off with many, he cannot take that failure. Perhaps with a secure extension for BC down the road he will part with Bargs but for now I just don't see it happening.

Triano and Bargs are BC guys. He cannot get rid of either of them without admitted huge failure and mistakes. It is more likely BC will be gone before either Triano or Bargs are imo. (or all 3 at the same time in an off season)
Shack is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 07:18 AM   #12 (permalink)
LX
with pink peppercorns

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,545
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BballWatcher View Post
Um, yeah it is standing out more now for two reasons. One is the losing streak, two is that Bargs is mired in one of the worst shooting slumps of his career.

Over his last four games, he's shooting 21-74 for a whopping 28% from the field. Read that sentence again!
He's had slumps as bad last season, and the season before, and the one before that. The mantra has always been - "get him the ball early and often so that he can get going". It was always someone else's fault. Now it's - "maybe he shouldn't be playing so much".
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 09:05 AM   #13 (permalink)
blah!

nosce te ipsum


 
fancylad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: east side.
Posts: 14,625
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
He doesn't have what it takes to be a pro.

thats what it looks like to me.
Sure he does, but it's clear that he's just not in the right situation.

Now i should clarify that he is proving himself to be a shitty player, so unfortunately when on the court playing for the current Toronto Raptors, an equally shitty team, he will fail and look horrible. But Bargnani is still a shitty player with some upside. you put him on a team with tight coaching and a system that runs like a well oiled machince and give him a role to play, i bet he succeeds and ends up looking good.

This year is a valuable year for me in two senses. One, we WILL get a good player via the draft. Two, we make decisions about the pieces we have and we formulate a plan based on said decisions. In these years with Bosh, Bargnani has been a mystery, but now on his own we have a truer picture of what he really is. I will consider this a painful lesson learned hopefully we can adapt and move on.
fancylad is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 09:11 AM   #14 (permalink)
contemplating

The Killing Joke

 
Claudius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burkina Faso, Disputed Zone
Posts: 10,017
Representing:
Send a message via MSN to Claudius
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fancylad View Post
Sure he does, but it's clear that he's just not in the right situation.
But what is that right situation? I know you mentioned placing him in an offence that can hide his weaknesses, but even Okur in Utah still played down low and defended.

The best word I can use to describe Bargnani is lazy. He's lazy defensively, he's lazy offensively as well. He relies too much on his talent, very similarly like Vince did at one point, to get by. We see guys like this every day of our lives and he's no different.

I just don't think he works on this team, where we SEEM to have a blue collar type of mentality of guys working hard and we have guy who SEEMS to be lazy.
Claudius is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 09:18 AM   #15 (permalink)
blah!

nosce te ipsum


 
fancylad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: east side.
Posts: 14,625
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
But what is that right situation? I know you mentioned placing him in an offence that can hide his weaknesses, but even Okur in Utah still played down low and defended.

The best word I can use to describe Bargnani is lazy. He's lazy defensively, he's lazy offensively as well. He relies too much on his talent, very similarly like Vince did at one point, to get by. We see guys like this every day of our lives and he's no different.

I just don't think he works on this team, where we SEEM to have a blue collar type of mentality of guys working hard and we have guy who SEEMS to be lazy.
i don't think he works on this team either to tell the truth. you ask what situation would work for him, and as i see it he could co-exist if he played along side a beast of a bigman who would do twice the share of dirty work and inside play: something we clearly don't have nor is it even fair to expect to have a guy like that.

I'm not saying this to defend Bargnani. My opinions on him have taken a serious nose dive recently.
fancylad is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 10:17 AM   #16 (permalink)
is.....

Tai-Pan
 
m5racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,894
Representing:
Default

Shit, everyone is so concerned with bargs, bargs, bargs, bargs. There is a lot more to worry about on this team then just bashing this guy for his shitty rebounding numbers. We are a team in the NBA, that has more d-leagures on it then NBA players.

WE NEED A TRUE CENTER....YES! We have to get over this. THis guy will not be traded unless its for an all-star player so move on, he is going to be with us for 4 more years so enjoy and get used to it. Hope that ED either gets a lot better fast, or we sign a real, defending, rebounding center this off season.......what would it be like having Bargs and a REAL center on this team.......
m5racer is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 01:00 PM   #17 (permalink)
LX
with pink peppercorns

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,545
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by m5racer View Post
what would it be like having Bargs and a REAL center on this team.......
It would be something like having a power forward that plays soft and shoots well under 30 percent regularly. Just a guess.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 01:39 PM   #18 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,236
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
Are GMs around the league so easily fooled?

I would say just about everybody knows who he is.
it's not about fooling anybody, it's about his strengths. Yes, everybody knows he's a poor help defender and rebounder. But he's also a great shooter and fantastic ball handler for his size. He can be very useful to a team who doesn't need his defense/rebounding.

Plus, many people believe that bad defense and rebounding are mostly due to lack of effort and triano has a reputation for being soft. So a GM might think that his bad-ass coach/tough coookie franchise player will make him bust his ass off. It's not like Bargnani can't defend/rebound, it's just that he won't apply himself.

Even better, you can usually tell when he wants to hustle and when he's taking the night off. On this team, the sad truth is that we lack scoring so badly that we have to play him regardless. A good team has the luxury to keep him on the bench, which is also one of the great motivating factors in the NBA ...

The bigger problem is that Bargnani is mostly useful to a good team, and those teams don't really have much to offer other than expiring and bad draft picks. I'm sure Miami would pick him up in a heartbeat if they had a 10 million expiring contract to use. The trick is getting a real asset back, a good draft pick or a good prospect. I don't think we'll be able to do that, teams always overvalue their own young players and draft picks.
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 01:46 PM   #19 (permalink)
Mean Muggin with his son

Swollen Member
 
b55bgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Rock AKA Newfoundland
Posts: 1,400
Representing:
Default

Send Bargnani to the Lakers. Phil Jackson wont take that shit. Neither would Popovich.
Actually Sam Mitchell didnt take that kind of shit either.
b55bgc is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 03:14 PM   #20 (permalink)
kicking himself for being so emotionally invested in the Roller-coaster Raptors

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,458
Representing:
Default

This team is a #1 pick away (a real #1 pick, not a Bargnani #1 pick :P) from being a strong 6-8th seed, at least. We have pieces in place to have a solid rotation (DD, Bargs, Johnson, Barbosa, even Jose as long as he's healthy and potential in Davis). We have a vacuum in the star position right now. That's what all good teams have, and that's what tanking provides.

The solution is to hold onto what we have or at least make trades to get better, not to dump talented but flawed players that we spent 5 years developing so that they can enjoy solid careers elsewhere.
-----

We're going nowhere fast now, so this is the perfect opportunity to take our lumps, let DD, Amir and Davis develop and have Bargs learn how to pass out of a double team and take his lumps as "the guy". Because Bargs won't have to be "the guy" forever and, despite being a #1 pick, shouldn't be expected to be "the guy" long term if we expect to get anywhere.

--------

Stop thinking of Bargs as a #1 pick because that's not what his talent is. But compared to just about anyone else on this team, he's our best player.

--------

If Washington called us up tomorrow and offered us Wall for Bargs - take that in a new york minute. But don't trade him for role players like Taj Gibson and Ronnie Brewer (as was mentioned in another thread) so we can lose Bargs and gain even more redundancy at the swing and PF positions (we already have similar players in Johnson and Davis & DD and Weems, respectively).


----

Every move Colangelo needs to make right now needs to be thinking long term. Dumping Hedo was brilliant because he's just getting older and already was a lazy fuck; stockpiling youth is part of the growing process. So, despite Bargs sucking right now, we shouldn't trade him for some old vet who will be ending his career when the youth peaks in 2-3 years, nor should we trade him for redundant players that we already have.

Last edited by BballWatcher; 02-03-2011 at 03:17 PM.
BballWatcher is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24