SI.com: As Bargnani falls flat, so do the Raptors - Page 2
Old 02-03-2011, 04:14 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EggsToTheBBQ View Post
When Andrea gets tired his shooting percentages nose dive, he gets pushed around in the paint and he doesn't get in position defensively.

IMO, the guy isn't in shape. He's been spending summers with the Italian national team instead of working on his conditioning.

It looks to me like this guy has hit a wall, and that's from playing so hard early in the season, after playing with the Italian team in the summer. His body can't take it, especially since he's a 7 footer.

He needs to be rested and he needs to work on his conditioning in the offseason. Personally, I think Jay is letting him play tired as a substitute for the conditioning he should be doing on his own time.

I still remember how good he has been in the past, and I hope he can take the athletic aspect of his training more seriously and establish consistency in the future.

I can't see him being traded by this organization without getting significant pieces in return, and I don't see other organizations willing to part with what it would take.
This is the bottom line...Bargs always scores more in the first half then disappears..unless his offense leads to big margin at the break , his presence leads to lousy defense and few rebounds...He needs to lift weights and hang around with Steve NAsh's trainer for the summer...I would tell him to not shoot but go to the Moses MAlone school of Post Ups & Rebounding....Until he starts to get position and grabs a few off the rim, Toronto is doomed... I think we have seen the best of Il Muggo and unfortunately it will not lead to a playoff contender.... He is the incarnation of Big Country Reeves except Bryant could rebound a little better....and preferred pies to pasta
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:21 PM   #22 (permalink)
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He's worked with Moses Malone. It's time to stop looking for solutions to an old problem. Old problems are old problems for a reason.
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:26 PM   #23 (permalink)
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He's worked with Moses Malone. It's time to stop looking for solutions to an old problem. Old problems are old problems for a reason.
Then a solution would be to limit his minutes and find a big who can share the load...let him earn some minutes like the rest of his teammates...
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:39 PM   #24 (permalink)
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This team is a #1 pick away (a real #1 pick, not a Bargnani #1 pick :P) from being a strong 6-8th seed, at least. We have pieces in place to have a solid rotation (DD, Bargs, Johnson, Barbosa, even Jose as long as he's healthy and potential in Davis). We have a vacuum in the star position right now. That's what all good teams have, and that's what tanking provides.
lol, i don't know what u mean by "strong" 6-8th seed, but a 6-8th seed in the east still means ur team sucks and its pointless. so not much of an improvement there.

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The solution is to hold onto what we have or at least make trades to get better, not to dump talented but flawed players that we spent 5 years developing so that they can enjoy solid careers elsewhere.
i don't really understand this point, doesn't really apply to the Raptors anyways

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If Washington called us up tomorrow and offered us Wall for Bargs - take that in a new york minute. But don't trade him for role players like Taj Gibson and Ronnie Brewer (as was mentioned in another thread) so we can lose Bargs and gain even more redundancy at the swing and PF positions (we already have similar players in Johnson and Davis & DD and Weems, respectively).
stating the obvious

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Originally Posted by BballWatcher View Post
Every move Colangelo needs to make right now needs to be thinking long term. Dumping Hedo was brilliant because he's just getting older and already was a lazy fuck; stockpiling youth is part of the growing process. So, despite Bargs sucking right now, we shouldn't trade him for some old vet who will be ending his career when the youth peaks in 2-3 years, nor should we trade him for redundant players that we already have.
tell us something we dont' know
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Old 02-03-2011, 08:16 PM   #25 (permalink)
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what a brutal post above. The guy takes time to make intelligent responses and you try to be funny or witty with some cheap and empty one liners....

tell us something we don't know.
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Old 02-03-2011, 08:57 PM   #26 (permalink)
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what a brutal post above. The guy takes time to make intelligent responses and you try to be funny or witty with some cheap and empty one liners....

tell us something we don't know.
ok there carp, i think u just have something against me but w/e
i wasn't trying to be funny....

1st quote, what was wrong with my reply?

2nd quote i genuinely don't understand....
"The solution is to hold onto what we have or at least make trades to get better"
you can either hold onto what u have or trade them, isn't that right? and who makes trades with the intention to get worse?

"....we spent 5 years developing so that they can enjoy solid careers elsewhere"
my memory may serve me wrong but i don't remember this happening to any ex raptor and i don't think the players on the current roster would qualify here including bargnani

iunno...maybe i'm interpreting it wrong

3rd quote, "If Washington called us up tomorrow and offered us Wall for Bargs - take that in a new york minute"

obvious and won't happen....don't know why it was mentioned

4th quote, "Every move Colangelo needs to make right now needs to be thinking long term"

"stockpiling youth is part of the growing process"

"So, despite Bargs sucking right now, we shouldn't trade him for some old vet who will be ending his career when the youth peaks in 2-3 years, nor should we trade him for redundant players that we already have."

like, ok duh....

Last edited by powerfulpanda; 02-03-2011 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:42 PM   #27 (permalink)
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ok there carp, i think u just have something against me but w/e
i wasn't trying to be funny....

1st quote, what was wrong with my reply?

2nd quote i genuinely don't understand....
"The solution is to hold onto what we have or at least make trades to get better"
you can either hold onto what u have or trade them, isn't that right? and who makes trades with the intention to get worse?
Um, a surprising amount of teams make trades to get worse. We did it when we dumped Carter. Memphis did it when they traded Gasol. Milwaukee did it in 03 when they traded 28-year old Ray Allen for 35 year old Gary Payton.

The other way teams make trades to get worse: selling/dumping draft picks.

Bad trades happen for a number of reasons, but the main ones are financial considerations, for draft picks (which, unless they're top 5 picks are REALLY iffy), or to appease a disgruntled star.

So yes, it is obvious to not make trades to deliberately get worse, but it happens ALL THE TIME.

----------------
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Originally Posted by powerfulpanda View Post
"....we spent 5 years developing so that they can enjoy solid careers elsewhere"
my memory may serve me wrong but i don't remember this happening to any ex raptor and i don't think the players on the current roster would qualify here including bargnani

iunno...maybe i'm interpreting it wrong
Your memory is awful then. Tracy McGrady and Damon Stoudemire are two examples. Chauncey Billups was a 1-year signing that we also gave up on too early. The Vince trade was a debacle as well; we got Aaron Williams, Eric Williams and what turned into Joey Graham for him. It could and should have been Granger with the pick, not Graham, but Babcock was an idiot and I digress...


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Originally Posted by powerfulpanda View Post

3rd quote, "If Washington called us up tomorrow and offered us Wall for Bargs - take that in a new york minute"

obvious and won't happen....don't know why it was mentioned

4th quote, "Every move Colangelo needs to make right now needs to be thinking long term"

"stockpiling youth is part of the growing process"

"So, despite Bargs sucking right now, we shouldn't trade him for some old vet who will be ending his career when the youth peaks in 2-3 years, nor should we trade him for redundant players that we already have."

like, ok duh....
Why even have a discussion if you're going to dismiss every step of growth as obvious? If it's so easy to build a contender, then why can't most teams do it?

I'm trying to point out that trading young players like Bargs for better but older players is risky and with a young team it may be a dumb idea long term.
------

Would you trade Bargs for Kobe right now? Of course you would, and I would - it's an easy decision, despite the fact that Kobe has 40,000 NBA minutes (regular season only) on his knees and body and probably only has a few good seasons left in him. What about Danny Granger? Joe Johnson? Sure, right? Despite being older than Bargs and somewhat injury prone, the latter two still have quite a few good seasons in them.

What about Brandon Roy, Ray Allen, Stephen Jackson?

That is the point I'm trying to make. While Roy, Allen and Jackson are all better than Bargs right now they probably won't be in 2-3 years, when DeRozan, Davis and hopefully our top 3 pick from this year are all hitting their stride.

--------

We've swung for the fences time and time again and most of the time we get burned. We brought in Hakeem Olajuwon to make us a great playoff team and team Vince with a future Hall of Famer. He lasted half a season.

I'm saying that despite Bargs' obvious flaws, he's a known commodity; a 20/6 scorer. He's not the franchise, he's not even a star, but he could very easily be a piece on a good team. He just can't be the main piece.

Last edited by BballWatcher; 02-04-2011 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:58 PM   #28 (permalink)
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lol, i don't know what u mean by "strong" 6-8th seed, but a 6-8th seed in the east still means ur team sucks and its pointless. so not much of an improvement there.
Classic Strong 6-8th seeds:

-Golden State a few years ago when they were loaded with shooters.
-New York Knicks in the late 90's
-Chicago LAST SEASON
-Oklahoma City LAST SEASON
-San Antonio last season!!!


this should be obvious. A "strong" 6-8th seed is a team that is dangerous and nobody wants to face. They get there for a variety of reasons: injuries or a strong conference, etc.

-------

Contrast this to "weak" 6-8th seeds: overachievers (ie. Charlotte last year), Philly, New Jersey, Washington the last times they made the playoffs.

Usually have some combination of:
-bad chemistry
-injuries (a few to many key injuries)
-a weak conference.

-------

so in this vernacular, the 06-07 the Raptors were a weak 3rd seed. Starting to make sense? Boston is a very strong 1st seed in the East right now. Cleveland was not the strongest 1st seed last year, although they had the best player in the league so you always have to watch out for that team.

----------

No offense, but nuance is lost on you. A strong low seeding can be a stepping stone to greater things. Chicago was a middling 41-41 last year, but they had solid pieces and a good foundation moving forward. A free agent signing (Boozer) and a year of maturation later, they're a very strong 3rd seed in the East right now, and they haven't even have their defensive anchor Noah in the lineup for a month and a half now!


"Not much of an improvement" is a defeatest attitude. Guess what? Raptors won't be top 4 seeded for a long time. Why even bother watching then??? It's obvious to me that the Raptors suck, yet I still keep supporting them.

Last edited by BballWatcher; 02-04-2011 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 02-05-2011, 04:18 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BballWatcher View Post
Classic Strong 6-8th seeds:

-Golden State a few years ago when they were loaded with shooters.
-New York Knicks in the late 90's
-Chicago LAST SEASON
-Oklahoma City LAST SEASON
-San Antonio last season!!!


this should be obvious. A "strong" 6-8th seed is a team that is dangerous and nobody wants to face. They get there for a variety of reasons: injuries or a strong conference, etc.
my point was we are in the eastern conference so there will be no such thing as a strong 6-8 because you can still be in and be below .500
the teams u mentioned were strong 6-8 seeds because the conference in those years were so good. they still had 50+ wins
and another thing they had in common was they had a VERY good chance to upset
the 6-8 seeds in the east do not and the 41-41 bulls last year did not either
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