Should we trade a first round pick this year for an impact player? - Page 4

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Old 01-18-2012, 07:25 PM   #61 (permalink)
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What about LAL? Detroit? Heck, if Miami wins it they didn't do it at the draft table..... The draft isn't the only way, it's just about being smart about which trades to make, which players to chase
Carp ... i dont disagree with your comments, but your forgetting that in your examples above a pure stud was won thru the draft. Miami got Wade, LAL got Kobe, San Antonio got twin towers, Durant, etc.
Ballers are like a frat house ... they flock around the big stud ... others stars will come if you have a legit star.

Im not saying trades are not important ...
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:01 AM   #62 (permalink)
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just draft harrison barnes and pg like kendall marshall
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:47 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Carp ... i dont disagree with your comments, but your forgetting that in your examples above a pure stud was won thru the draft. Miami got Wade, LAL got Kobe, San Antonio got twin towers, Durant, etc.
Ballers are like a frat house ... they flock around the big stud ... others stars will come if you have a legit star.

Im not saying trades are not important ...
LAL didn't draft Kobe... but you're right, I was under the impression you were suggesting the draft is the be all end all..... If we could get a young stud via trade, I think it's just as viable as the draft A young stud being the key.
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:27 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Rondo is better the Jose x2 no question, we get a sf for a FA and our team is 10x better next year with jv pick and rolling with rondo and perhaps batum spotting up for a 3, Bargs getting better passes from the highest current assister in the league. Not to mention dd having a mentor in the handles in rondo. Cmon if you would deny the team of this there is something quite wrong. Our 1st may turn out to be a 10 but it could be a 1, with rondo you get a garenteed 8 straight away who is young and can develop his shot to perfect his game.

Rondo is better end of question.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:11 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Rondo is better the Jose x2 no question, we get a sf for a FA and our team is 10x better next year with jv pick and rolling with rondo and perhaps batum spotting up for a 3, Bargs getting better passes from the highest current assister in the league. Not to mention dd having a mentor in the handles in rondo. Cmon if you would deny the team of this there is something quite wrong. Our 1st may turn out to be a 10 but it could be a 1, with rondo you get a garenteed 8 straight away who is young and can develop his shot to perfect his game.

Rondo is better end of question.
There aren't many good SFs available in FA, but there are some decent (and great) PGs.

The draft is full of PFs and swingmen, but not many PGs.

As such, it's better to use the draft to fill the SF hole while using FA or the trade route to upgrade the PG position.

However, the team shouldn't be fixated on upgrading the PG position. What this team needs is a legitimate playmaking perimeter player, whether it's a PG, SG, or SF. They need someone that can create off the bounce, create his own shot, and make the clutch shot. That is, they need a franchise player. Rondo isn't a franchise player.
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:47 PM   #66 (permalink)
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There aren't many good SFs available in FA, but there are some decent (and great) PGs.

The draft is full of PFs and swingmen, but not many PGs.

As such, it's better to use the draft to fill the SF hole while using FA or the trade route to upgrade the PG position.

However, the team shouldn't be fixated on upgrading the PG position. What this team needs is a legitimate playmaking perimeter player, whether it's a PG, SG, or SF. They need someone that can create off the bounce, create his own shot, and make the clutch shot. That is, they need a franchise player. Rondo isn't a franchise player.
I'm wary of pinning all my hopes and dreams on some kid, hoping that he'll be the next Wade/Bron/Rose. It's pretty rare that you end up with a player like that.

I'd much rather acquire a strong, defensive PG who knows how to run an offense and can dominate a game WITHOUT scoring if I have the chance to. A PG like Rondo paired with JV (who's supposed to be pretty good on that end) would improve our defense immeasurably. I'd take Kyle Lowry too in a heartbeat but I doubt that HOU is going to let him go based on what he's been doing so far this season.

The final thing that can't be discounted is that Rondo knows what it takes to win. He's tough as nails and he's been to the finals a couple of times and won a ring. That's invaluable. And he can score too... he's proved that many times. Maybe not enough to carry a team on his own but with Bargs and DD here that shouldn't be a major concern.
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:06 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Rondo has a lot of wear-and-tear on him, and I don't think he'll be able to sustain playing at a high level with his recklessness. He's starting to miss games (14 last year) and he's battled a few ailments already this season, and he's only 25 years old. That's a big flag.

As for depending on some youngster, I would take the gamble on that especially with this year's crop of draft-eligible players. And then I would take a gamble on acquiring a PG through FA or trade after the trade. For instance, maybe Deron Williams could be convinced to come to Toronto, as the Raptors could have a great, young core with Bargnani, JV, DD, and let's say Barnes. That's a great core.

The other thing that I mentioned is that the team doesn't need to target a PG. What it needs to do is target the best perimeter player available, in particular focusing on one that can dominate the ball and create. And to me, SF is by far a bigger hole for the team, and this team needs a 2 or 3 that can be a playmaker since Calderon is capable of hitting open shots. Bringing a 2 or 3 that can create would add a whole new dimension to this team.
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:14 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Rondo has a lot of wear-and-tear on him, and I don't think he'll be able to sustain playing at a high level with his recklessness. He's starting to miss games (14 last year) and he's battled a few ailments already this season, and he's only 25 years old. That's a big flag.

As for depending on some youngster, I would take the gamble on that especially with this year's crop of draft-eligible players. And then I would take a gamble on acquiring a PG through FA or trade after the trade. For instance, maybe Deron Williams could be convinced to come to Toronto, as the Raptors could have a great, young core with Bargnani, JV, DD, and let's say Barnes. That's a great core.

The other thing that I mentioned is that the team doesn't need to target a PG. What it needs to do is target the best perimeter player available, in particular focusing on one that can dominate the ball and create. And to me, SF is by far a bigger hole for the team, and this team needs a 2 or 3 that can be a playmaker since Calderon is capable of hitting open shots. Bringing a 2 or 3 that can create would add a whole new dimension to this team.
So you're concerned about Rondo's health... but not Jose's?

Rondo will be fine. His game isn't as reliant on crazy athleticism as it is for someone like Westbrook or Rose. People said the same things about Wade and A.I. too and both players were fine and had/have had good careers.

PG and C are the 2 most important positions on the floor. If you can land a good one in FA you take the shot. That being said, I have almost zero faith in BC's ability to woo Deron and convince him to come to Toronto. He'd just stay in jersey if he wanted to part of a rebuild.

Maybe the picture will be clearer later on when we see what these college players do this season. All I know is that I haven't heard much about dominant wings other than Barnes.... and everyone is saying that this draft is PF heavy.
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:37 PM   #69 (permalink)
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So you're concerned about Rondo's health... but not Jose's?

Rondo will be fine. His game isn't as reliant on crazy athleticism as it is for someone like Westbrook or Rose. People said the same things about Wade and A.I. too and both players were fine and had/have had good careers.

PG and C are the 2 most important positions on the floor. If you can land a good one in FA you take the shot. That being said, I have almost zero faith in BC's ability to woo Deron and convince him to come to Toronto. He'd just stay in jersey if he wanted to part of a rebuild.

Maybe the picture will be clearer later on when we see what these college players do this season. All I know is that I haven't heard much about dominant wings other than Barnes.... and everyone is saying that this draft is PF heavy.
I'm not a fan of Calderon. I've made that quite apparent in my short time here. However, I think he's been pretty good this year, and PG, IMO, isn't a top priority. Addressing the hole at the swing positions should be the priority.

Second, PG and C are not the most important positions on the court. Actually, there really isn't one position that I would consider to be the most important given how the game has changed. A lot of SGs and SFs have become the primary ballhandlers for their clubs and, thus, the generals on offence. Many centres are now more like PFs - long, athletic types. Even a lot of PFs have skills that SFs have. The game has changed significantly that so many positions are interchangeable.

I like Rondo - I don't like giving up the assets required to get him because I don't consider him to be an elite player but rather one or two notches below. I think he can make the team better, but not significantly enough to become contenders. As such, I would rather stay the course and keep the draft picks. Then use the cap space to strengthen other areas. Basically, the team has two big assets available to improve the team this off-season - a likely top-5 pick and significant cap space. But to acquire Rondo, the team would have to deal both of these assets plus likely another asset (either a player or draft pick). So instead of 2 or 3 upgrades, the team is getting 1. That's not good personnel management for a rebuilding team IMO. If this team was close to contention, that would be another story.
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:47 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I'm not a fan of Calderon. I've made that quite apparent in my short time here. However, I think he's been pretty good this year, and PG, IMO, isn't a top priority. Addressing the hole at the swing positions should be the priority.

Second, PG and C are not the most important positions on the court. Actually, there really isn't one position that I would consider to be the most important given how the game has changed. A lot of SGs and SFs have become the primary ballhandlers for their clubs and, thus, the generals on offence. Many centres are now more like PFs - long, athletic types. Even a lot of PFs have skills that SFs have. The game has changed significantly that so many positions are interchangeable.

I like Rondo - I don't like giving up the assets required to get him because I don't consider him to be an elite player but rather one or two notches below. I think he can make the team better, but not significantly enough to become contenders. As such, I would rather stay the course and keep the draft picks. Then use the cap space to strengthen other areas. Basically, the team has two big assets available to improve the team this off-season - a likely top-5 pick and significant cap space. But to acquire Rondo, the team would have to deal both of these assets plus likely another asset (either a player or draft pick). So instead of 2 or 3 upgrades, the team is getting 1. That's not good personnel management for a rebuilding team IMO. If this team was close to contention, that would be another story.
Take a look at the dollars that Gasol, Chandler and Nene got this offseason and tell me that TRUE Cs aren't highly valued. I'd argue they're actually more important than ever because they're becoming increasingly rare. There aren't many teams who win it all without one. When it comes to PGs you can get by without one if you have a star SG to handle those duties (Kobe, Wade, Pierce, Lebron etc). If you don't you're going to need that guy to run your offense and get others involved.

Again... I'm skeptical about us landing any kind of prime time FA because it's never happened in the team's history (unless you count Hedo lol). Not something that I'm comfortable banking on. Players didn't want to come here when were winning 40 games/yr and we had Bosh. Why would they come now?

The financial concerns are valid... but I think that they could be addressed.
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:59 PM   #71 (permalink)
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just draft harrison barnes and pg like kendall marshall
wouldn't mind this at all
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Old 01-19-2012, 03:42 PM   #72 (permalink)
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We should only think about trading our pick if its out of the top 3. Getting any of the top 3 picks, Drummond Barnes or Davis would make this team one of the best young teams in the league, and we'd actually have something to look forward to.
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Old 01-19-2012, 03:57 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Take a look at the dollars that Gasol, Chandler and Nene got this offseason and tell me that TRUE Cs aren't highly valued. I'd argue they're actually more important than ever because they're becoming increasingly rare. There aren't many teams who win it all without one. When it comes to PGs you can get by without one if you have a star SG to handle those duties (Kobe, Wade, Pierce, Lebron etc). If you don't you're going to need that guy to run your offense and get others involved.

Again... I'm skeptical about us landing any kind of prime time FA because it's never happened in the team's history (unless you count Hedo lol). Not something that I'm comfortable banking on. Players didn't want to come here when were winning 40 games/yr and we had Bosh. Why would they come now?

The financial concerns are valid... but I think that they could be addressed.
Nene is more of a PF than a C. Chandler, most would agree, was overpaid by NY. While he's a great defensive C, he hasn't had a huge impact in NY. Gasol got a bit more than I think he deserved. But the question is - did they get the money because they were centres or just because they are good players?

I agree with you that the team may not be able to convince FAs to sign in Toronto, and that has been a struggle. However, this shouldn't restrict the team to just looking at trading for average to almost-elite-but-not-elite players. The team has gone down this path before and with little success. The team has had more success through the draft than through trade in acquiring high-end talent.

I also don't want to give up 2 or 3 assets (and very important ones at that) to land one player like Rondo. If the team is going to make that kind of investment, it should be on a truly elite player. But as you mentioned, such players are difficult to acquire, especially for Toronto. As such, stick to the draft IMO, especially in a draft year where there are a lot of players with very high ceilings. Will there may not be a Lebron James in the draft, there could be a few Dwyane Wades or even Vince Carters (i.e., players who were considered to be solid #2 or #3 options but developed into #1 lead players).
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:01 PM   #74 (permalink)
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One last comment on Rondo. I'm not sure if Ainge will trade him unless he gets an unbelievable package. Instead, I think Ainge will change course and decide to hold on to Rondo and actually look to dealing Allen, KG, and others. Rondo would be a good piece to help with the rebuilding effort that needs to happen in Boston, as the Celtics are an old and aging team. The only way they deal Rondo is if they get a package that helps them accelerate their rebuilding process. A top-5 pick definitely would be enticing along with 1 or 2 other young players.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:06 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Nene is more of a PF than a C. Chandler, most would agree, was overpaid by NY. While he's a great defensive C, he hasn't had a huge impact in NY. Gasol got a bit more than I think he deserved. But the question is - did they get the money because they were centres or just because they are good players?

I agree with you that the team may not be able to convince FAs to sign in Toronto, and that has been a struggle. However, this shouldn't restrict the team to just looking at trading for average to almost-elite-but-not-elite players. The team has gone down this path before and with little success. The team has had more success through the draft than through trade in acquiring high-end talent.

I also don't want to give up 2 or 3 assets (and very important ones at that) to land one player like Rondo. If the team is going to make that kind of investment, it should be on a truly elite player. But as you mentioned, such players are difficult to acquire, especially for Toronto. As such, stick to the draft IMO, especially in a draft year where there are a lot of players with very high ceilings. Will there may not be a Lebron James in the draft, there could be a few Dwyane Wades or even Vince Carters (i.e., players who were considered to be solid #2 or #3 options but developed into #1 lead players).
I admire your optimism, but Wade and VC (when he gave a shit) were RARE players that you don't see every draft.

You might get ONE of those guys every draft... or every other draft.... but a few? The only I've seen that happen is 2003.

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One last comment on Rondo. I'm not sure if Ainge will trade him unless he gets an unbelievable package. Instead, I think Ainge will change course and decide to hold on to Rondo and actually look to dealing Allen, KG, and others. Rondo would be a good piece to help with the rebuilding effort that needs to happen in Boston, as the Celtics are an old and aging team. The only way they deal Rondo is if they get a package that helps them accelerate their rebuilding process. A top-5 pick definitely would be enticing along with 1 or 2 other young players.
Agreed. I'd assume that Rondo, Green and Bass are going to be cornerstones of the next generation of Celts.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:31 PM   #76 (permalink)
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The Raps did land JV with the #5 pick overall in a draft considered to be well below average. And by all accounts, JV should be a solid core piece and maybe better (keeping fingers crossed). And this year's draft is much, much deeper and the top-end talent is much, much better. So it's quite possible that the team lands a "franchise player" this year. It's difficult to say outright because the college game is so different from the pro game, which is why players like Wade, Carter, Pierce, etc. fall out of the top-3.
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Old 01-19-2012, 08:20 PM   #77 (permalink)
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The Raps did land JV with the #5 pick overall in a draft considered to be well below average. And by all accounts, JV should be a solid core piece and maybe better (keeping fingers crossed). And this year's draft is much, much deeper and the top-end talent is much, much better. So it's quite possible that the team lands a "franchise player" this year. It's difficult to say outright because the college game is so different from the pro game, which is why players like Wade, Carter, Pierce, etc. fall out of the top-3.
Honestly, I dont see any potential franchise players in this draft. Anthony Davis and Drummond might be if they develop offensively.
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Old 01-21-2012, 02:12 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Honestly, I dont see any potential franchise players in this draft. Anthony Davis and Drummond might be if they develop offensively.
Davis could be a Stoudemir'e clone. I'm not completely sold on Drummond. He's a freakish athlete but he doesn't bring it every night, and that's a big flag. He could be the next David Robinson or he could be Eddy Curry.

I think Harrison Barnes could develop into a similar player as Carmelo Anthony, but with a more consistent outside shot and much better defence. His ability to shoot the ball from the perimeter would be a great fit to the slashing ability of DD.
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