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View Poll Results: Would you trade Demar DeRozan for James Harden?
Yes. 22 40.00%
No. 33 60.00%
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:17 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Admiral View Post
harden is better overall right now and could be for his career depending on what demar becomes, but his game is pretty much fully developed, what you see is pretty much what he will be for his career

demar is still a player in development, its risky if he stays in potential mode, but the signs show he will improve

considering right now they are both secondary option type players there really isn't a reason for that trade, harden is forever a secondary option, but demar has the primary option ability, its worth the risk on keeping him, if he doesn't reach his potential we still have a good player as a secondary option
Well put. I would have to agree completely.
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:24 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I think some are underestimating Harden's potential as being so much less than Demar's.
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:46 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I think some are underestimating Harden's potential as being so much less than Demar's.
Where did anyone say it's so much less? With either of these guys, it's likely going to be important to have the right guys around them. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure where you're picking up on negative vibes.
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:51 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Well put. I would have to agree completely.
I'm not being confrontational, however, how does one look at James Harden and say, as if it were a fact, that he has reached exactly what he will be?

Really. James Harden, a kid, a young kid, will never ever improve in the NBA?

Fuck he Improved from year one to year two.... and grew.

Unless there is some tangible formula, I dunno guys, I don't think anyone is in a position to say Harden can't get better.

On the flipside, for Derozan, there is nothing to say he couldn't get better, but there is also an NBA Graveyard full of guys like him that didn't make it. Guys that didn't use their great potential.

Honestly, it's a really tough question, thats why I asked it. And looking at the results, I think we can safely say that none of us is really sure.


My hopes.... Derozan really does tap into that potential, really does channel his inner Kobe, and really does become a star. I like him, I respect guys that put in the work.

The real difficult part of being a gm in any sport is assessing your current talent, looking at their potential, and being able to make the decisions you need to make to assure your teams talent level moving forward.

We like to think there is a "they" out there that take the tests results, combine stats, all the interviews and have a concrete and tangible idea of who is going to be amazing. The truth is, there isn't. They see what we see, there is no more, no less. They see it through more educated eyes usually. Old coaches and gm's who have seen the game day in and day out, many having played the game at that top level, have a really good eye.

But really. They can only, at the end of the day, guess.

So here we are back to the question at hand. You look at a young guy like James Harden who looks to be maturing, and looks like he is going to be a top level producing cog that will be a very smart choice for a team trying to build a championship winner. Who doesn't want that?

Then, you look at our man Demar. This kid is no place close to Harden right now. His mental game isn't close. His actual game, playing the game of ball, isn't close, but he has that thing. That thing you can't quite put a finger on. He can jump, he can get to the rack, and he competes. It's like he's game, but just doesn't have the tools. How long do you wait? Is he going to come out of this lockout looking like Kobe.... thousands of hours in the gym improving on fundamentals that most of his top tier peers already have?

its anyones guess.

Harden is the safe bet. And a damn good bet ( I wanted him in the draft)
But Demar is a gamble..... one that could bring incredible returns. Or could just be what he is now.... ok, game, but not championship material.

You see I don't think you can answer my poll correctly.
It's a trick question. It's one that has been around as long as there have ben pro sports....

6 birds in a hand keep your family fed.... but finding a way to get all 12 in tree......
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:53 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Where did anyone say it's so much less? With either of these guys, it's likely going to be important to have the right guys around them. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure where you're picking up on negative vibes.
didn't have to look all that far... and you agreed.

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Originally Posted by Admiral
harden is better overall right now and could be for his career depending on what demar becomes, but his game is pretty much fully developed, what you see is pretty much what he will be for his career
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Old 08-23-2011, 12:13 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Pretty much fully developed hardly connotes all your crazy negative interpretations. I see it as a positive mostly. The dude has realized a great deal of potential. At the same time it's hard to see where he gets a whole lot better all of his own accord. All the same - nobody said it was impossible. And given an improving team around him, that could still mean great things for him. Is it really that hard to understand? Honestly - the morphine kills the reading skills of some jackals. To suggest that "pretty much developed" equates in any way to "never going to improve" or that he's reached "exactly what he is going to be" has to be feigning thickness in order to troll and be confrontational for the sake of doing so.
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Old 08-23-2011, 12:26 AM   #47 (permalink)
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No way Jose, Harden is only good cuz you got 5 dudes trying to guard Westbrook and Durant.
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Old 08-23-2011, 12:26 AM   #48 (permalink)
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The poll being 50% is rather ridiculous. This is just evidence of home team bias and optimism/exaggerated faith in own players.

Harden is a far better talent than Derozan and the "potential" card is so overplayed. Harden has potential too, arguably more potential considering his foundation.
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Old 08-23-2011, 02:08 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Pretty much fully developed hardly connotes all your crazy negative interpretations. I see it as a positive mostly. The dude has realized a great deal of potential. At the same time it's hard to see where he gets a whole lot better all of his own accord. All the same - nobody said it was impossible. And given an improving team around him, that could still mean great things for him. Is it really that hard to understand? Honestly - the morphine kills the reading skills of some jackals. To suggest that "pretty much developed" equates in any way to "never going to improve" or that he's reached "exactly what he is going to be" has to be feigning thickness in order to troll and be confrontational for the sake of doing so.

I thought.... what would chuck say....

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Old 08-23-2011, 09:56 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Ok. So can someone point out just what Harden is going to get better at? That is not to diminish his talent level in the least. Just tell me what he's going to work on that is going to have him making some kind of big jump. Of course he is going to get smarter and become a better teammate as years progress, and there will be some refinement of his skills. I wouldn't doubt that for a second. Are some of you suggesting that this guy is going to be amongst the scoring leaders or what?

Meanwhile, try to recall the past season for each of them. Some dude on drugs made a big issue of Harden improving last season. How much of that was simply a reflection of him taking on a bigger role and working his way upwards in the rotation after Green was traded?

Now just to be perfectly clear, I'm not suggesting he didn't improve. Let's not interpret everything in terms of absolutes if we can. It's pretty obvious that when Admiral suggested that Harden was pretty much fully developed, that he wasn't trying to paint his argument in blacks and whites, so let's not let our inner douches fail to recognize the obvious grays involved, just to try to incite others to see red. A smart guy once said something like that in another thread and it should be applied here.

Now let's look at DeMar. He had a pretty obvious improvement, not just between year one and year two, but within the last season itself. He went from having a very predictable game that saw him force his offense too much and getting his shot blocked far too often, to finding ways to involve the other guys on the floor, reading defenses much better, and making good decisions while becoming a fairly efficient player. Throughout the year he didn't see an awful lot of easy baskets. Some of that was due to not having a Durant or a Westbrook or much of any kind of a team with a workable system. And some of that was on him - his lack of range certainly didn't make it any easier for him to find open floor to work in. So there is a chance that he could make a very good jump himself. If he finds himself in a situation where he can consistently get some relatively easy points, and get more space to work with, then the biggest question is going to be whether I can be as certain as I am with Harden about him improving as a teammate. Of course he could fall flat, fail defensively, and amount to little. But based on the little bit of success he had last season, under extremely difficult circumstances for a young player, and seeing how he did appear to grasp the game as a team endeavor all the same, I think you have to weigh his promise pretty strongly and expect him to at least equal the impact of a Harden.
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Old 08-23-2011, 11:04 AM   #51 (permalink)
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When I read some of these comments, it makes me think that DeRozan's potential is so greatly scrutinized and analyzed as to make it sound like his ceiling is limitless.... whereas Harden's potential is suggested as less and left as such. Not trying to incite others to see red, but I definitely think that most of us have watched much more Raptors games and know the ins and outs of Demar's game.

I like both guys, but if this team had Harden instead of DD it would still have a solid SG on their roster with potential to become very good. The difference in their potential in my opinion isn't that great and I think the same thing has happened with Ed Davis on here too. So many young guys come in every year with new hype and hope that many previously hyped candidates fall off as well. I think we all look at absolute best case scenario with potential and that rarely happens.
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Old 08-23-2011, 11:06 AM   #52 (permalink)
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in terms of bball IQ Harden is on another level altogether, and is much more refined in almost every aspect of the game - ball-handling, shooting, passing, play-making, defense, etc.

right now it's not close - i think if harden were on this team, and had the opportunities demar has, you'd see a 20/5/3 type of player. we'll see though, demar made a big jump from his first to second year, and i feel like he's got one more big jump in him. this will be a closer comparison after next season, whenever that is.
Aha..

This is what I'm talking about. What if the deal is on the table, now. because you're bang on, I think anyhow. watching Harden he's just a better ball player. but there's that chance Derozan could explode. But will Derozans IQ explode?

Will Harden just get fat?

I really find this to be a fun question.... I mean if I were in charge of building a team, man, I'd be perplexed. I think this is definitely a career builder or ender....haahah
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Old 08-23-2011, 11:51 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Aha..

This is what I'm talking about. What if the deal is on the table, now. because you're bang on, I think anyhow. watching Harden he's just a better ball player. but there's that chance Derozan could explode. But will Derozans IQ explode?

Will Harden just get fat?

I really find this to be a fun question.... I mean if I were in charge of building a team, man, I'd be perplexed. I think this is definitely a career builder or ender....haahah
I think for my part it is very dependent on where the team is right now. If we were in OKC's shoes, I would completely prefer Harden - he is a very solid backup or 5th starter for a team with two all star calibre players already.

However, since the Raps are in desperate need of all-star calibre players, I wouldn't be chasing a solid player right now. Young guys with high potential who might not work out but might become stars is who I would target - we need a home run, and I would risk a few strikeouts to get it. DeRozan has that potential, and has been regarded as one of the highest potential picks from his draft. Harden was seen as a sure thing prospect with limited upside. I don't think that has changed - DeRozan might become a star, but is a big question mark about whether he will put it all together. Harden has developed quickly into a very solid player for a good team, and seems to have found his niche as a player in terms of style and effectiveness.

One of Harden's perceived weaknesses: Limited upside.
DraftExpressProfile: James Harden, Stats, Comparisons, and Outlook

One of DeRozan's perceived strengths: Potential
DraftExpressProfile: Demar DeRozan, Stats, Comparisons, and Outlook
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Old 08-23-2011, 12:02 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Yep - I think as a GM of this team, it would be hard to make this deal right now. Given another scenario in terms of where the team's at, or given just another year, and it could be much easier to do the deal.

And I don't think too much is made of DeMar's potential Carp. I think the fact that it appears to be a pretty tough choice in just about everyone's minds reflects that. I don't think his ceiling is limitless by any means, and a good number of posts in support of keeping DeMar still put him relatively on par with Harden rather than comparing him to *cough*Kobe*cough*.
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Old 08-23-2011, 12:10 PM   #55 (permalink)
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A very timely RealGM piece on Harden: The NBA's Underrated: James Harden - RealGM Articles

Read it through - I'd agree with every word, including the draft being the only way for an "undesirable" teams to build a contender.

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Old 08-23-2011, 12:20 PM   #56 (permalink)
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A very timely RealGM piece on Harden: The NBA's Underrated: James Harden - RealGM Articles
Nice article. Ugh at the comparison of OKC being able to use high picks to get players like Westbrook and Harden to surround Durant while Toronto saw Araujo, Villanueva, and Bargnani.
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Old 08-23-2011, 12:21 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Yep - I think as a GM of this team, it would be hard to make this deal right now. Given another scenario in terms of where the team's at, or given just another year, and it could be much easier to do the deal.

And I don't think too much is made of DeMar's potential Carp. I think the fact that it appears to be a pretty tough choice in just about everyone's minds reflects that. I don't think his ceiling is limitless by any means, and a good number of posts in support of keeping DeMar still put him relatively on par with Harden rather than comparing him to *cough*Kobe*cough*.
I agree with you....
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Old 08-23-2011, 12:24 PM   #58 (permalink)
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i had wanted to continue with my rivetting in-depth analysis from yesterday but i gotta go to work. quickly though:

i think many of the arguments for DeRozan stem from the fact that he has some pretty obvious weaknesses in areas that players can generally improve on (shooting, ball-handling) with hard work. this is why we see the potential for such growth. we think: if he can be this productive and he cant even shoot or dribble yet, imagine how good hes gonna be then!
with Harden, his development is solid enough in all areas for there to not be a glaring weakness for him to improve upon. therefore, we assume less potential.
so yes, DeRozan has more room to improve, along with a clear-cut blueprint on how to do so - shoot jumpers, dribble lots - and the work ethic to see it through. Harden is definitely more advanced at this point - which is why he was drafted 3rd, not 9th (we all wanted him in the draft, SJ, lol) - but theres good reason to suspect that DeMar can catch him in the areas where hes behind.
therefore, if i am to believe that DeMar will eventually match Hardens skill-set, then i am also inclined to take the player with the all-NBA work ethic in DeRozan. the only place we lose is in the short-term (as i feel like Harden could explode on this team) but we r rebuilding anyway. okc is chasing titles, they need the more refined player. we dont.

so if the question were: who would u draft? the answer is probably still Harden for the same reasons it was 2 years ago, hes more ready to contribute. but would i trade DeMar for Harden? no. not now, when hes finally starting to realize his potential. we've spent all this time developing him and quite honestly, as many of u have said, hes a better fit for this team. and Harden is better for okc (who wouldnt make the trade either, by the way).

anyways, great discussion but im off to work, later guys

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Old 08-23-2011, 12:26 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Nice article. Ugh at the comparison of OKC being able to use high picks to get players like Westbrook and Harden to surround Durant while Toronto saw Araujo, Villanueva, and Bargnani.
To be fair, if Stern hadn't introduced that rule where high school players were no longer eligible for the draft, we might've ended up with Durant instead of Bargnani...

But hey, I'm not complaining.
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Old 08-23-2011, 12:31 PM   #60 (permalink)
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To be fair, if Stern hadn't introduced that rule where high school players were no longer eligible for the draft, we might've ended up with Durant instead of Bargnani...

But hey, I'm not complaining.
woulda been oden at that point for sure. KD didnt put himself into the conversation for #1 overall until his freshmen year of college. anyways im outta here....
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