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View Poll Results: Would you trade Demar DeRozan for James Harden?
Yes. 22 40.00%
No. 33 60.00%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-22-2011, 11:34 AM   #21 (permalink)
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While Harden might be slightly more skilled at the moment, although less athletic, I'm sure DeRozan would look just as good playing against other teams bench players or playing alongside Durant and Westbrook.
Is Harden less athletic? I mean, predraft was basically a wash (or a slight edge to Harden even), and Harden had way more body fat than DeMar back then.
Has Harden become less athletic? Not visually, at least for me.
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Old 08-22-2011, 11:42 AM   #22 (permalink)
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While Harden might be slightly more skilled at the moment, although less athletic, I'm sure DeRozan would look just as good playing against other teams bench players or playing alongside Durant and Westbrook.
Mehh, he's a better passer and defender. If we're talking right now i'd take Harden. But really, i'm quite happy with Derozan and i think eventually he'll probably be better, if he can improve his range and defense. Harden has also proven in the playoffs that he can step up.
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Old 08-22-2011, 11:56 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
Is Harden less athletic? I mean, predraft was basically a wash (or a slight edge to Harden even), and Harden had way more body fat than DeMar back then.
Has Harden become less athletic? Not visually, at least for me.
Combine numbers mean nothing to me. I've watched them both play and I would say DeRozan is more athletic.

Secondly, while Harden is currently the better player (although it should be noted he's not that much better defensively which is precisely why Sefolosha starts over him), DeRozan's dramatic improvement from his rookie season to his second is what would make me choose him over Harden long term.
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Old 08-22-2011, 12:30 PM   #24 (permalink)
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James Harden is a better shooter (including 3pt %), ball handler, passer and driver to the basket. Derozan only has a better mid-range game.

Defensively both Harden and Derozan aren't good. Sefolosha starts because his entire game is defense and when you have Durant and Westbrook on the floor it makes sense to have a defender out there. Derozan would be a 6th man on OKC as well.

The potential argument is exaggerated. Derozan was more raw than sushi as a rookie so of course he was going to improve considerably.

Athletically Derozan is obviously a better leaper but Harden has a quicker step.

Last edited by 6cubed; 08-22-2011 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 08-22-2011, 12:45 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Yes, in a heart-beat. Harden is smarter by a ton, a better defender (and likely always will be) and a much better facilitator with the ball in his hands (and likely always will be).

DeMar's athleticism has always been over-rated, IMHO, and that's the only thing he conceivably has on Harden.
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Old 08-22-2011, 01:06 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Combine numbers mean nothing to me. I've watched them both play and I would say DeRozan is more athletic.
He doesn't rely on his athleticism, so I guess I get what you mean. But he's extremely athletic when the situaiton requires it.
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Old 08-22-2011, 01:39 PM   #27 (permalink)
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The potential argument is exaggerated. Derozan was more raw than sushi as a rookie so of course he was going to improve considerably.
Considering he was written off by many (on this board in particular) after his rookie season as not even having D League level talent and being a greatly inferior player to Sonny Weems, I'd say his improvement was quite significant.
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Old 08-22-2011, 01:51 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I'd say his improvement was quite significant.
20+ PPG in the final 41 games of the year

And that's what makes it a tough call, despite the fact that I think Harden has 20/5/5 potential. Demar was putting up 20+ PPG without having a polished perimeter game, and using somewhat shaky handles. Imagine what he does if he works on his shortcomings. That's what would be bugging me in the back of my mind.

Sometimes people undervalue getting to the line. When Demar is really aggressive, he gets to the line 10+ times a game. I'm anxious to see if this aspect of his game gets more consistent as time passes. He could be a beast on the foul line.

This decision would be a lot easier if one of them was clearly a better defender than the other. But I don't think that's the case, either.

My feelings would probably change from week to week. It's tough to be consistent on this, because I think your decision has to take into account what type of team you're building and the other personnel you have to complement the player. If the Raps use their next draft pick on a PG who can hit the 3 and create for others, then I would want to keep Demar. If the Raps move forward using Bayless, whose playmaking abilities leave something to be desired, I might prefer having Harden in the backcourt with him.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 08-22-2011 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 08-22-2011, 01:55 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Good points bill. I do think DeRozan has it in him to be a pretty good facilitator as well though. He really impressed me with his willingness to look to pass. That could make allow him to really make a big jump when he improves his ball handling and range.
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:19 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Good points bill. I do think DeRozan has it in him to be a pretty good facilitator as well though. He really impressed me with his willingness to look to pass. That could make allow him to really make a big jump when he improves his ball handling and range.
He drastically increased his AST% last year from 4.9 to 8.6%. That's about an 80% increase. He'll need to do it again to be a good passer, but he showed the ability to improve there.
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:21 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Why not throw another name into the mix: Tyreke Evans.

Would you guys do a Tyreke for DeMar trade?
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:30 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Why not throw another name into the mix: Tyreke Evans.

Would you guys do a Tyreke for DeMar trade?
no
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:43 PM   #33 (permalink)
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no
just a simple no? tyreke average 20/5/5 in his rookie season. he declined last year due to injuries. he single handedly beat us last year.
i love demar as much as the next Raptors fan, but propose this trade to a kings fan and they'll laugh in your face
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Old 08-22-2011, 06:04 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Dude could definitely hide a bird in that beard of his but I'd still take DeMar, I just look at him and see something special. Call me crazy, I vote no.
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Old 08-22-2011, 06:04 PM   #35 (permalink)
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just a simple no? tyreke average 20/5/5 in his rookie season. he declined last year due to injuries. he single handedly beat us last year.
i love demar as much as the next Raptors fan, but propose this trade to a kings fan and they'll laugh in your face
That wasn't just a simple no. That was a jeffb no. The man defines simple.

Sorry Jeff.
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Old 08-22-2011, 06:29 PM   #36 (permalink)
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As for Tyreke, it entirely depends on coaching. How strong of a personality is Dwane Casey? I know little about him. I don't doubt the ability to draft defensive schemes and teach them. But Tyreke needs a strong mentor more than anything.

If there's a guy in the coaching role who could help Tyreke mature... then sure. I have no doubt in Tyreke's talent and I'd trade for him instantly.
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Old 08-22-2011, 06:32 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Great thread idea. Im actually really not sure on this 1 (although my initial thought - and vote - is that i would prefer to have Harden). Many of your arguments hav made me lean 1 way or the other (mostly because I havent seen as much of Harden) so Im gonna do a little research of my own and hopefully sort through this.

1st off, lets talk athleticism (and reach). i think Hardens athleticism is underrated. looking at their draftexpress profiles, i see that Hardens no-step vert is actually higher (31.5`` to 29.0``) than DeRozans but his max vert is lower (37.0`` to 38.5``). even this is compensated for by Hardens standing reach which is an inch higher than DeRozans despite being 1.25`` shorter (in shoes). another thing: Harden measured out at 10.1% body fat compared to just 4.9% for DeMar. this means that he had more room to improve althetically in the last 2 years. its hard to say how they would measure out today, but its another thing to consider. all this, combined with the fact that he tested better in agility and speed drills, leads me to believe that he may actually be the more athletic of the 2.

to be continued...
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:26 PM   #38 (permalink)
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next is defense. for this im using 82games.com to begin. stats arent everything, and defense is the hardest to chart, but heres what ive found anyway:

in looking at their opponent counterparts production it appears that the stats support their respective reputations. Harden appears to be an above average defender at the SG position with a 13.9 opponent PER over 48 mins. DeRozan comes in as a slightly below average defender at 15.7 (league average for PER is 15.0).
at SF its 11.1 for Harden and 12.3 for DeMar (incidentally, this is also where DeMar performs the best offensively, but thats another topic) although their usage (particularly Hardens) is much lower here. again, athleticism (particularly in lane agility) and length come into play here and we`ve already seen that Harden has the edge there.
another useful statistic is each teams`on-off stats defensively with each player. OKC allows 103.7 points per 100 possessions when Harden is on the floor versus 106.6 points per 100 possessions when he is on the bench. that makes for a difference of -2.9 opponents points per 100 possessions when Harden is playing.
with DeRozan on the floor, the Raps give up an average of 114.9(!) points per 100 possessions. damn. dont re-read OKCs numbers if u dont feel like bumming yourself out. with DeMar on the bench, TO gives up 112.1 points for a difference of +2.8 points per 100 possessions when DeRozan is playing. Granted, much of this can be attributed being in a starting line-up with Calderon and Anrea (refuse to put a `D`anywhere near that guy) Bargnani for much of the year, but when combined with the statistics above Im left with nothing to suggest that hes the superior defender.
its also widely regarded that Harden is smarter defensively, but still manages to average nearly the exact same block (1.0 to 1.1) and steal (0.4 to 0.3) numbers to DeRozan in 8 min less playing time per game. some might find these numbers interesting so ive included them in the discussion. to me, however, they mean very little unless there is a significant disparity. much of the time, gambling for blocks and steals is often done at the expense of the smarter defensive play and its hard to say how these players get their numbers. since there isnt much of a difference between the players in these categories anyway, its easier to just go by the more advanced statistics above and our own observations.
either way, i definitely give the edge to Harden defensively.....

Last edited by canada_rocks2369; 08-22-2011 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:43 PM   #39 (permalink)
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harden is better overall right now and could be for his career depending on what demar becomes, but his game is pretty much fully developed, what you see is pretty much what he will be for his career

demar is still a player in development, its risky if he stays in potential mode, but the signs show he will improve

considering right now they are both secondary option type players there really isn't a reason for that trade, harden is forever a secondary option, but demar has the primary option ability, its worth the risk on keeping him, if he doesn't reach his potential we still have a good player as a secondary option
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Old 08-22-2011, 09:40 PM   #40 (permalink)
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If Demar improves his D more, and just his range a bit. I'd say no... If he doesn't improve either of those, than yes. He's got time, I'd stick with em.
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