Setting the record straight about Lowry. - Page 2
Old 12-04-2012, 12:10 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Agreed.

That one play where the ball moved about 5 or 6 times before Ross hit a 3 was beautiful.
Eaxactly. That's what i want to see. Also, looking at this team does this really look like a "fast paced team" the way it's meant to be? This to me is a mid tempo team that just seems to wing it on the offensive end. It also doesn't help that we're 22nd in the league defensively. Can't get out and run when you're opponent is consistently shooting 48%.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:13 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I'd also like to see him pass the ball into guys like Derozan/Kleiza and even at times Bargnani and get the damn ball back once in a while. He often comes down passes it into Demar 17ft from the basket and demar holds onto it and takes a spin away fadeaway shot. There needs to be much better overall ball movement from everyone including the wings. The ball sticks FAR too much with our wing players imo.
So true. To much one on one basketball on Raptors now for my taste. Just way to much standing around watching one guy work. If only Lowry and Derozan would share ball more it would make so much difference.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:19 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Thing about Lowry is he is great for fantasy teams - gets his stats, fights hard, goes for every ball, etc,etc. But he is to dumb and to selfish to be a winning PG. Sorry but his basketball IQ is very low. He goes for a lot of offensive rebounds he has no chance of getting leaving his opponents open for fast breaks. Early shots in the clock when nobody from teammates yet is in position even for rebounding? That is teenager mistakes, should be yanked after that and given good speech by coach. Or game vs Houston, Raptors cutting in the lead and he had 2 on 1 break after stealing the ball with some other Raptor under the basket for easy 2 - instead he does stupidest thing.. steps back for three, misses, ball goes other way and all momentum is gone.
All in all I like his hustle and heart - do not like his brain. Not sure if that is correctable.
well with a 4-14 record.. can you blame him, he is pressing, giving it his all for a bummy team
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:20 AM   #24 (permalink)
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So true. To much one on one basketball on Raptors now for my taste. Just way to much standing around watching one guy work. If only Lowry and Derozan would share ball more it would make so much difference.
Mehh, i honestly think Lowry shares just fine, especially early in the game. He rarely gets the ball back. I find that he takes the least amount of shots in the first quarter and looks to get guys like Derozan/Bargnani going. Bargnani's best quarter tonight.....1st quarter. Derozan at the half had 12pts. How many shots did Lowry have in the 1st quarter.....3.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:21 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Thing about Lowry is he is great for fantasy teams - gets his stats, fights hard, goes for every ball, etc,etc. But he is to dumb and to selfish to be a winning PG. Sorry but his basketball IQ is very low. He goes for a lot of offensive rebounds he has no chance of getting leaving his opponents open for fast breaks. Early shots in the clock when nobody from teammates yet is in position even for rebounding? That is teenager mistakes, should be yanked after that and given good speech by coach. Or game vs Houston, Raptors cutting in the lead and he had 2 on 1 break after stealing the ball with some other Raptor under the basket for easy 2 - instead he does stupidest thing.. steps back for three, misses, ball goes other way and all momentum is gone.
All in all I like his hustle and heart - do not like his brain. Not sure if that is correctable.
I'd like for you to name me a better PG that we could acquire.

Please think long about that and get back to me.

LOL @ 12 shots/gm being "selfish".

Did you even watch tonight's game?

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Mehh, i honestly think Lowry shares just fine, especially early in the game. He rarely gets the ball back. I find that he takes the least amount of shots in the first quarter and looks to get guys like Derozan/Bargnani going. Bargnani's best quarter tonight.....1st quarter. Derozan at the half had 12pts. How many shots did Lowry have in the 1st quarter.....3.
HERO BALL.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:23 AM   #26 (permalink)
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You know that EVERY star PG in the NBA does this right? Except maybe Rondo since he's not much of an outside shooter?
or nash, paul, kidd, miller or any other true PG, and not the new breeed of scoring PGs like rose, westbrook or lawson etc.

A PG should never shoot a 3 with 20 seconds on a clock and nobody under the basket, it's a stupid play worthy of guys like nick young.

Not sure why you're trying to defend something that's clearly indefensible. It's a bad thing and he shouldn't be doing it. Obviously, you'd rather have lowry even if he's doing some stupid things occasionally, but it would be a lot better if he didn't do them at all.

And, for a guy with his quickness, he should really be averaging close to 10apg for the minutes he's playing, anything below 8 is indicative of a scoring PG.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:24 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I'd like for you to name me a better PG that we could acquire.

Please think long about that and get back to me.

LOL @ 12 shots/gm being "selfish".

Did you even watch tonight's game?



HERO BALL.
Why are you getting so defensive? Not everyone has to agree with your view point man.

Lowry produced, I just didn't like the "way" he produced. Very little ball movement and lots of tunnel vision.

He has huge balls though, probably the biggest of any Raptor. The man is not afraid to draw contact or get wacked
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:35 AM   #28 (permalink)
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or nash, paul, kidd, miller or any other true PG, and not the new breeed of scoring PGs like rose, westbrook or lawson etc.

A PG should never shoot a 3 with 20 seconds on a clock and nobody under the basket, it's a stupid play worthy of guys like nick young.

Not sure why you're trying to defend something that's clearly indefensible. It's a bad thing and he shouldn't be doing it. Obviously, you'd rather have lowry even if he's doing some stupid things occasionally, but it would be a lot better if he didn't do them at all.

And, for a guy with his quickness, he should really be averaging close to 10apg for the minutes he's playing, anything below 8 is indicative of a scoring PG.
Nice selective memory there lol....

I've seen those guys take quick shots before... on more than 1 occasion. John Stockton was actually famous for taking quick 3s in transition with 20 secs left on the shot clock.

You (and the others) are trying to nitpick. Plain & simple. Whether it's a quick shot... a TO... his man getting by him on a possession... there will ALWAYS be something for you to bitch about.

And you know what? I can do the same thing for ANY PG (or player) in the NBA.

As for Lowry not avging 10 apg.... I'm not sure that you realize how difficult a task that is given the fact that there's only ONE PG in the NBA doing that right now.

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Originally Posted by Bargn88 View Post
Why are you getting so defensive? Not everyone has to agree with your view point man.

Lowry produced, I just didn't like the "way" he produced. Very little ball movement and lots of tunnel vision.

He has huge balls though, probably the biggest of any Raptor. The man is not afraid to draw contact or get wacked
Yet you love Bargs.... who sets the standard for "not moving the ball" and "tunnel vision".

Last edited by TORaptor4Ever; 12-04-2012 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:39 AM   #29 (permalink)
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It's also funny to me that he's deemed selfish, but would everyone consider him a top three player on this team?

If he's top three on this team (which he easily is) and he's 3rd on this team in shot attempts isn't that about where it should be?

Bargnani 15.8 Shots attempts per game
Derozan 15.5 Shot attempts per game
Lowry 12.3 shot attempts per game
Calderon 9 shot attempts per game off the bench


So out of the starting 5, he's 3rd in shots. That seems odd? Really?

He's also outrebounding every big on this team and gets to he line 5.3 times pe game, second only to Derozan's 5.5.

Last edited by jeffb; 12-04-2012 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:56 AM   #30 (permalink)
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lol given Jose Canceron the last 7 years, we need more selfish and accountable players. Toronto doesn't know good point guards because we have never had a really good one.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:56 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I'd like for you to name me a better PG that we could acquire.
Please think long about that and get back to me.
LOL @ 12 shots/gm being "selfish".
Did you even watch tonight's game?
I watched of course and he made numerous stupid decisions today as well. If you really want I can go rewatch the game and point every one of them. Calderon was even worse for the record.

If he would be so great Memphis and Houston woulda kept him. As I said - great individual fantasy numbers doesn't mean it will translate into team wins.

He is not even in top 50 in AST/TO ratio...Not great for starting PG. Again, I said already I like lots of things about him but he has very serious faults as starting PG.
Not sure I need to look for other point guards we can acquire.. how about he works on his weaknesses and shows to me in the future that he can be better then he is now?
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:07 AM   #32 (permalink)
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LOL @ 12 shots/gm being "selfish".

:
It is not about pure numbers. It is about timing of those shots and situations. He can take 15 shots/game and not deserve selfish label as long as these shots are within offense. Now he does lots of one on one drives and step back jumpers instead of passing to open teammate - maybe it is not selfish, maybe he just does not have pass first mentality or court vision. Example from Houston game is perfect - instead of passing the ball and getting team easy two he decided to take step back three on a fast break - that play alone shows how poor his basketball IQ is. Loss vs Detroit - another example, we lost because of his inability to make right decisions down the stretch.
True winning PG should always make best decision possible for the team - be it a pass, or a shot, or call a timeout.

Last edited by Calgary Jazz; 12-04-2012 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:26 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I watched of course and he made numerous stupid decisions today as well. If you really want I can go rewatch the game and point every one of them. Calderon was even worse for the record.

If he would be so great Memphis and Houston woulda kept him. As I said - great individual fantasy numbers doesn't mean it will translate into team wins.

He is not even in top 50 in AST/TO ratio...Not great for starting PG. Again, I said already I like lots of things about him but he has very serious faults as starting PG.
Not sure I need to look for other point guards we can acquire.. how about he works on his weaknesses and shows to me in the future that he can be better then he is now?
I think you should do that.... and I also think you should pay special attention the 2nd half so you can record every GOOD play he made too.

Notice how many times he got to the line? When no one else did?

Guess that was Lowry playing Hero Ball again.

"Serious faults" as a starting PG.... riiiiight.

Let's take a look at what Lowry can do....

- can penetrate and get to the line
- can rebound the ball
- can pass
- can play D
- can shoot it from deep

Yep. Looks like D-League talent to me.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:41 AM   #34 (permalink)
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He can take 15 shots/game and not deserve selfish label as long as these shots are within offense.
We dont have an offence. We should be running a flow type of offence where we screen roll 10000 times a game like all the other teams with really good PGs do, but for some reason instead we isolate Bargs, Derozan and Kleiza who are below average ISO players, except Demar. I think by having Lowry as well as Demar screen roll with Bargs/JV, it will make our offence that much better and open up the floor to hopefully get more open 3s and easy rolls to the rim. It'll also make Demar a better player as he gets better in the pick and roll game with his decision making and passing ability.

More players will become threats, and we'll score more if we stop running isolation and screen plays for players who suck at it.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:10 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Missed the game....too bad we lost.....no blow out so it must have been a good game.Checking the stats and it looks our hero played well. However i read on this board more and more fans are turning on Lowry. I guess his ankle was good today ???? Bad game its the ankle... good game hes healthy.....wow beam me up scotty !!!!!!
See Pietrus started and got 3 pts what happened there....got to get him back off the bench playing with Ross Calderon and Johnson.
Looks like Calderon shit the bed only 16 minutes did he even break a sweat.Maybe his ankle was sore lol!!!!

From the posts all i got is that Lowry had a stats building game.....6-16 shooting. Looks like he was lights out from the FT line.He went there 11 times the next Raptor got there only 2 times...?????? Something really wrong there......pg must facilitate from the point did he do it tonite ????

I will have to watch the game...bottom line it was close but that line will not get you to the playoffs.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:32 AM   #36 (permalink)
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After last night... I'm game. It was a fucking disaster.

PGs should not be scoring 24 unless its from open looks or driving. Lowry has been chucking up contested shots, long threes, shots early in the clock, etc. and not doing what he's supposed to do. I don't care if he's frustrated, he's supposed to be a leader.

His poor shot selection and frequency of it, inability to penetrate and dish and his complete lack of clutch shooting is not making up for his good points for me right now. His offense is not generally as frustrating as Calderon's Defense, but it has been the last 2 games. And shot selection and frequency has nothing to do with being injured.

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Old 12-04-2012, 11:26 AM   #37 (permalink)
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We dont have an offence. We should be running a flow type of offence where we screen roll 10000 times a game like all the other teams with really good PGs do, but for some reason instead we isolate Bargs, Derozan and Kleiza who are below average ISO players, except Demar. I think by having Lowry as well as Demar screen roll with Bargs/JV, it will make our offence that much better and open up the floor to hopefully get more open 3s and easy rolls to the rim. It'll also make Demar a better player as he gets better in the pick and roll game with his decision making and passing ability.

More players will become threats, and we'll score more if we stop running isolation and screen plays for players who suck at it.
Not to nitpick, but Demar is a below average iso player as well. If I see another spin or fade I'm going to lose it. We forcefeed Demar more than any other player. It's a major mistake. Dude should be flying around, cutting, getting loose balls, throwing down lobs and dunking off screens.... and instead he's pounding, spinning, fading. AB isn't an iso player either though he's not that bad on the low block.... Just wish he'd go there so much more often instead of being placed at the three point line or, dare I say it, at halfcourt to go iso on Faried! Lowry doesn't draw and kick as much as he draws. Kleiza, as well, needs to be more of a system player. These guys seem to all be working on iso moves and skills and by getting the ball, holding the ball, they're only making it so much more difficult on themselves. Why aren't we teaching these scorers to attack defenses that are moving and not set? I'm losing my mind.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:06 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Not to nitpick, but Demar is a below average iso player as well. If I see another spin or fade I'm going to lose it. We forcefeed Demar more than any other player. It's a major mistake. Dude should be flying around, cutting, getting loose balls, throwing down lobs and dunking off screens.... and instead he's pounding, spinning, fading. AB isn't an iso player either though he's not that bad on the low block.... Just wish he'd go there so much more often instead of being placed at the three point line or, dare I say it, at halfcourt to go iso on Faried! Lowry doesn't draw and kick as much as he draws. Kleiza, as well, needs to be more of a system player. These guys seem to all be working on iso moves and skills and by getting the ball, holding the ball, they're only making it so much more difficult on themselves. Why aren't we teaching these scorers to attack defenses that are moving and not set? I'm losing my mind.
because our coach is a defensive one who can't run an offensive system apparantly.


it just sucks that his so called "championship D" has also shit the bed recently
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:07 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I think you should do that.... and I also think you should pay special attention the 2nd half so you can record every GOOD play he made too.

Notice how many times he got to the line? When no one else did?

Guess that was Lowry playing Hero Ball again.

"Serious faults" as a starting PG.... riiiiight.

Let's take a look at what Lowry can do....

- can penetrate and get to the line
- can rebound the ball
- can pass
- can play D
- can shoot it from deep

Yep. Looks like D-League talent to me.
Sorry man, but we speaking different languages here. I can't explain to you simple thing that even scoring 30 pts or getting to the line 15 times while leaving other players standing and watching is not a winning basketball. You see his 11 FT attempts and I see numerous chucked shots early in the clock or missed passes to open teammates. I see offensive fouls while crashing rebounds he has no chance of getting ( he should be running back on defense instead preventing transition baskets), I see him gambling for steals and leaving his man open for easy shots.
Bottom line - he hustles and plays hard, just not smart and it is not resulting in wins, simple.
If you have game recorded, rewatch it and pay attention to the episode he gets blocked by McGee. After getting all the way to the rim on baseline drive he decides to challenge one of the best shot blockers while JV is waiting 2 feet from the basketball for an easy dunk. Simple pass, 2 pts for the team - huge difference. Until he figures it out he will remain good fantasy player, nothing else.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:12 PM   #40 (permalink)
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After last night... I'm game. It was a fucking disaster.

PGs should not be scoring 24 unless its from open looks or driving. Lowry has been chucking up contested shots, long threes, shots early in the clock, etc. and not doing what he's supposed to do. I don't care if he's frustrated, he's supposed to be a leader.

His poor shot selection and frequency of it, inability to penetrate and dish and his complete lack of clutch shooting is not making up for his good points for me right now. His offense is not generally as frustrating as Calderon's Defense, but it has been the last 2 games. And shot selection and frequency has nothing to do with being injured.
Agree

I've noticed Lowry is terrible at looking off of JV, in fact, he's brutal in terms of getting the right guys the ball at the right times. Yeah he is getting a few assists a game, but in terms of who gets the ball and when..

I'm not sure he fits well with DD and Bargs. Those guys are system players that need the offense to stop and get them the ball in set spots for a shot. Lowry would seem to need a more free flowing system but we don't have the creators on the floor to do that.

He never continues to feed hot hands, never looks to get anyone established. It like he passes only to set up his own offensive game.

Lowry is a player that looks real good on paper, but in terms of improving the team overall it is misleading.

I'm seeing glimpes of Mike James, but am willing to wait and see if he improves with time as his "injury" heals.

Last edited by Bargn88; 12-04-2012 at 12:28 PM.
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