The Score: Top 30 Raptors of all time - Page 3
Old 07-29-2011, 04:07 PM   #41 (permalink)
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top 30 raptors... thats a pretty diluted list

I can't even name 20 good Raptors. lots of average players
You beat me to it. With the exception of Chris Bosh my entire list would come from the 2000/2001 teams:

Vince Carter
Antonio Davis
Alvin Williams
Mugsy Bogues
Dell Currie
Doug Christie
Charles Oakley
Kevin Willis
Tracy McGrady
JYD
Chris Childs
Mo Pete
and
Bosh

Maybe Keon Clark though he's more notable for his wasted potential than anything he ever did on the court.

17 more after this? Seriously?

Edit - Forgot Mighty Mouse for the early years.
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:35 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Going back to original topic, they have Jorge Garbajosa at #29. I'm glad he made the list, but I was hoping he would be higher.

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Jorge Garbajosa’s Raptors’ résumé:
-74 games, 26:48 MPG, 8 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 1.7 APG, 1.1 SPG, 0.9 TO, 1.2 PF
-2006-07 NBA All Rookie Team and Eastern Conference Rookie of the Month for December, 2006
-Starter on only division championship team in franchise history
-Gruesome injury effectively cut his Raptors/NBA career short

When Bryan Colangelo first came to Toronto and built the 2006-2007 team by embarking on what some called a “Euro-movement,” Jorge Garbajosa was a key component of that movement. Sure, he wasn’t as highly touted as Andrea Bargnani or as known around NBA circles as American Anthony Parker, but “Garbo,” as he affectionately became known to Raptors fans, was a significant pick-up.
He was never supposed to be a star, but I vividly remember constant reports, blogs and stories about what basketball experts referred to as “basketball IQ.” That’s what Garbo was supposed to be — a smart basketball player who played the game the right way on both ends of the floor without having to be spectacular. That’s exactly what we got. I don’t think I can remember a single moment of Garbajosa doing something special, but I also can’t remember a single bone-headed play.
With Jorge, you always knew what you were going to get — stability. And that stability at the small forward position was a big part of why the Raptors came out of nowhere to stun the NBA with 47 victories and an Atlantic Division Championship in 2006-2007. You could easily make the argument that Jorge Garbajosa was the “glue guy” on the second-best Raptors team in franchise history. And based on that fact, he finds a home in our Ultimate Raptors Rankings.
Ultimate Raptors Rankings ? No. 29: Jorge Garbajosa | Blog Archive | RaptorBlog | Blogs | TheScore.com

Last edited by js12; 07-31-2011 at 09:29 PM.
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:46 PM   #43 (permalink)
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If MJ is number 30, that says a lot. In 16 years there should be 30 players better than this guy, on many different levels.

I say Bosh should be number one over Vince, because in spite of not doing as much individually, he did as much as Vince did with less support. That's not to say I didn't like a lot of the guys around Bosh, I just think that Vince had a few years of pretty good talent around him, and simply didn't care to raise the team beyond mediocrity. I would guess that we'll see more VC teammates higher up in this thing than we do CB teammates.

And T-Mac never understood the game of basketball as a team sport - fuck him. Amazing talent that was mostly wasted.
Couldn't agree more.

We had playoff success in the early 2000s because our entire TEAM was pretty solid. Tough-minded vets who KNEW how to play defense and fought their asses off every possession. Yes, Vince was good back then... but let's be real... it wasn't like he was Lebron with the Cavs or anything.

T-Mac.... oh T-Mac.... AND Damon.... when will these guys learn that "going home to be the man" RARELY works out? Both of those kids were LOVED when they were here... and were in some pretty good situations. Too bad they didn't realize it until their careers were almost over.
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Old 07-29-2011, 08:39 PM   #44 (permalink)
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It's really unfortunate Vince wasn't kept... but the team around him when he left was brutal. I don't fault him for looking around and wanting out. He was at one point a top 5 player.... and the in-game dunks were on another level. Easily the best ever Raptor.
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Old 07-29-2011, 09:32 PM   #45 (permalink)
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It's really unfortunate Vince wasn't kept... but the team around him when he left was brutal. I don't fault him for looking around and wanting out. He was at one point a top 5 player.... and the in-game dunks were on another level. Easily the best ever Raptor.
+1

You're so agreeable when its not involving Bargs XD
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:14 AM   #46 (permalink)
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+1

You're so agreeable when its not involving Bargs XD
It's amazing! I guess I'm just growing tired of the rampant negativity directed at Bargnani, so I do apologize..... but there is enough negativity in the world that a basketball player shouldn't draw anyone's hate on this forum without just cause.

Yes, I could ignore it, but Chiggmo, then we wouldn't have come full circle to this point! Cheers! And you're welcome!
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:27 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Going back to original topic, they have Jorge Garbosa at #29. I'm glad he made the list, but I was hoping he would be higher.



Ultimate Raptors Rankings ? No. 29: Jorge Garbajosa | Blog Archive | RaptorBlog | Blogs | TheScore.com
fuck the score
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:29 PM   #48 (permalink)
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fuck the score
If they have Turkoglu over Garbo.

I just realized I screwed up his name bad.
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:56 PM   #49 (permalink)
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It's really unfortunate Vince wasn't kept... but the team around him when he left was brutal. I don't fault him for looking around and wanting out. He was at one point a top 5 player.... and the in-game dunks were on another level. Easily the best ever Raptor.
The dunks were brilliant. But I remember a guy that was very inconsistent when it came to buying into doing what it takes to win. The dunks counted for two points. I saw his brilliant, dominating 50-point game against the Suns live in person. Phoenix was a shit team then, and the guy Vince was supposed to be covering came very close to winning that game for them. That Raptor team should have won 50+ games, but there were a lot of games where they didn't even compete. Top 5 player my ass. No top 5 player comes out and lays down like he did, and I'm not even talking about when he did that literally.
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:58 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Meanwhile, Jorge at 29 is a travesty.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:11 AM   #51 (permalink)
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The dunks were brilliant. But I remember a guy that was very inconsistent when it came to buying into doing what it takes to win. The dunks counted for two points. I saw his brilliant, dominating 50-point game against the Suns live in person. Phoenix was a shit team then, and the guy Vince was supposed to be covering came very close to winning that game for them. That Raptor team should have won 50+ games, but there were a lot of games where they didn't even compete. Top 5 player my ass. No top 5 player comes out and lays down like he did, and I'm not even talking about when he did that literally.
Phoenix was a shit team? Really?

53 wins in the Western Conference = shit team?

And the Raps should've won 50+? They were two season removed from a 16 win season and had never finished above .500. A 45 win season for an up and coming team full of 30+ journeyman and veterans, two young studs and a psycho coach was pretty darn good imo.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:13 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Meanwhile, Jorge at 29 is a travesty.
Yup, shouldn't even have made the list.
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:41 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Doug Christie

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Old 08-01-2011, 01:17 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Phoenix was a shit team? Really?

53 wins in the Western Conference = shit team?

And the Raps should've won 50+? They were two season removed from a 16 win season and had never finished above .500. A 45 win season for an up and coming team full of 30+ journeyman and veterans, two young studs and a psycho coach was pretty darn good imo.
yeah - I was wrong about them being a shit team - thinking about the team that tailed off just after that season. But they were not unbeatable by any means. I thought the game I had in mind actually happened a year later.

In any case, I'm not sure why a team full of very solid vets, along with Doug Christie (another excellent young player) and a supposed top-5 player should not have won 50 games. And they definitely should have done so the following season. I do remember a real problem in both those seasons, with the same kind of effort being shown from one game to another, and that was usually due to Vince. They were exciting times, but they were frustrating as well, and it's hard to see where they overachieved.

I know I was personally quite content with the 45 win season, aside from them somewhat backing into the playoffs, coming back from double-digits to win by 1 against a truly terrible Bulls team, at home, to finally clinch a spot on the third-last date on the schedule. That last part of the schedule was just terrible, with so many games thrown away as they just failed to compete. There was a reason that McGrady said the ship be sinking, and it was pretty clear that Vince had to do more on a game-to-game basis. And it just didn't really happen the following year either, when my contentment began to turn to discontent.
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:26 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Yup, shouldn't even have made the list.
Based on his limited time here, you may be right. But it's not like there were so many players with extended stays here. The guy was an excellent player. I suspect there are going to be guys ahead of him that just had better numbers, and if that is how this list is constructed, then yes, it is a travesty. Jorge did more than any numbers show. The GM spent four years complaining about how hard it was to replace him. But no - he shouldn't make the list because he didn't score enough. Being able to guard almost any position, and making an impact beyond the boxscore should be discounted automatically. I mean who wanted this guy on their fantasy team right?

I wish this team had seen 30 players better than him, but they just didn't. Once you get past all those 30+ veterans and journeyman from the Vince glory years, it is pretty slim pickings.
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:42 PM   #56 (permalink)
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yeah - I was wrong about them being a shit team - thinking about the team that tailed off just after that season. But they were not unbeatable by any means. I thought the game I had in mind actually happened a year later.

In any case, I'm not sure why a team full of very solid vets, along with Doug Christie (another excellent young player) and a supposed top-5 player should not have won 50 games. And they definitely should have done so the following season. I do remember a real problem in both those seasons, with the same kind of effort being shown from one game to another, and that was usually due to Vince. They were exciting times, but they were frustrating as well, and it's hard to see where they overachieved.

I know I was personally quite content with the 45 win season, aside from them somewhat backing into the playoffs, coming back from double-digits to win by 1 against a truly terrible Bulls team, at home, to finally clinch a spot on the third-last date on the schedule. That last part of the schedule was just terrible, with so many games thrown away as they just failed to compete. There was a reason that McGrady said the ship be sinking, and it was pretty clear that Vince had to do more on a game-to-game basis. And it just didn't really happen the following year either, when my contentment began to turn to discontent.
I'm not too sure I remember things the same way as you. The Raps were pretty much a .500 or close to a .500 team until that Suns game (who also won 50+ games in 2000-2001, so not tailing off yet until they traded Kidd). Then Carter tore it up...winners agains the Clips, the Celtics, the Rockets with a dunk over Hakeem, he dominated against the Blazers in Portland (I remember this game in particular because it was on TBS and Willis hit a 3 at the end of regulation with the game out of reach). Before you knew it they were 13 or 14 games above .500 in the middle of March. Then the Butch Carter show took over and they went for a dump and it was deemed a sinking ship by McGrady after his meltdown in the playoffs. Remember some of the vets wearing black headbands in protest?


Doug Christie was 30 years old in 2000. He was not a "young" player and had been part of some of those awful Raptors teams before VC. He really didn't come into his own until he was on those really solid Kings teams.

Regardless, Carter was emerging as big time player. He drastically improved his shot and his handles and when he struggled it was usually against the larger, more physical players he was forced to guard at SF (the reason they traded for Williamson and moved him to the 2).

Also, the next year was fantastic. In fact, it was the best year of Carter's career and the best year the franchise has ever had.
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:52 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Based on his limited time here, you may be right. But it's not like there were so many players with extended stays here. The guy was an excellent player. I suspect there are going to be guys ahead of him that just had better numbers, and if that is how this list is constructed, then yes, it is a travesty. Jorge did more than any numbers show. The GM spent four years complaining about how hard it was to replace him. But no - he shouldn't make the list because he didn't score enough. Being able to guard almost any position, and making an impact beyond the boxscore should be discounted automatically. I mean who wanted this guy on their fantasy team right?

I wish this team had seen 30 players better than him, but they just didn't. Once you get past all those 30+ veterans and journeyman from the Vince glory years, it is pretty slim pickings.
Garbo may very well be the most overrated Raptor ever. Sure he left it all on the floor somne nights and he looked great when he was on, but I also remember him being woefully inconsistent. There were games where he was completely overmatched, looked lost on the floor, would commit a ton of excuse me fouls on shooters which resulted in and ones and couldn't hit the broad side of the barn.
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Old 08-01-2011, 05:01 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Garbo may very well be the most overrated Raptor ever. Sure he left it all on the floor some nights and he looked great when he was on, but I also remember him being woefully inconsistent. There were games where he was completely overmatched, looked lost on the floor, would commit a ton of excuse me fouls on shooters which resulted in and ones and couldn't hit the broad side of the barn.

Yeah i kind of agree with that. I liked him a lot, but he was far from athletic, was inconsistent on offense and his defense was average at best. People loved him b/c he played hard, was a "wiley vet", but i suspect that if hadn't got hurt he would have been run out of town eventually.
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Old 08-01-2011, 05:08 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Garbo also used to step out of bounds at least once a game
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:09 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I'm not too sure I remember things the same way as you. The Raps were pretty much a .500 or close to a .500 team until that Suns game (who also won 50+ games in 2000-2001, so not tailing off yet until they traded Kidd). Then Carter tore it up...winners agains the Clips, the Celtics, the Rockets with a dunk over Hakeem, he dominated against the Blazers in Portland (I remember this game in particular because it was on TBS and Willis hit a 3 at the end of regulation with the game out of reach). Before you knew it they were 13 or 14 games above .500 in the middle of March. Then the Butch Carter show took over and they went for a dump and it was deemed a sinking ship by McGrady after his meltdown in the playoffs. Remember some of the vets wearing black headbands in protest?


Doug Christie was 30 years old in 2000. He was not a "young" player and had been part of some of those awful Raptors teams before VC. He really didn't come into his own until he was on those really solid Kings teams.

Regardless, Carter was emerging as big time player. He drastically improved his shot and his handles and when he struggled it was usually against the larger, more physical players he was forced to guard at SF (the reason they traded for Williamson and moved him to the 2).

Also, the next year was fantastic. In fact, it was the best year of Carter's career and the best year the franchise has ever had.
The following year was fantastic in that all the pieces were in place. Carter had great numbers, but he would continue to go from unstoppable one game, to just lacking energy in the next. I contend that he simply never reached a point where he was anything like a top-5 player. If he had that team would have easily won 50+ games. He had the look of a player that was more than happy to just win enough, something that he never showed any signs of getting past from that point on. Aside from some real determination shown in the olympics, and of course the dunk contest, and in spurts like the stretch of games you alluded to, we just never saw the player that he could be, fully realized.

Christie was one of my favorite Raptors at that time. He was in his prime, and as big a part of the puzzle as any in terms of making it to the playoffs in 2000. Yes he became discontent over having to play point guard. And that was a part of the troubles with the downturn. He still played hard in spite of butting heads with the coach. Vince - not so much. He stopped taking the basket to the hole, and made it easy for opposing defenses as he stood behind the arc dribbling far too much. He put it in cruise control.

McGrady made his comments in the midst of the big dump pre-playoffs. The black headbands was where the open revolt took place, in the playoffs, but McGrady gave everyone his inside knowledge of the turmoil in the middle of the losing.

I thought Carter's best season was under KO actually. The dude played defense on every possession then, and it made a difference, even with a lot of crap surrounding him. His passing game really came into it's own around then as well. In that season he would do his jeckyll and hyde routine on offense within games rather than from one game to the next. He'd have this unbelievable spring in his step and get up on a team by 15 or 20, and then get stagnant with the dribbling on the perimeter before jacking bad shots for a quarter or two, and blow the lead. It's too bad, because he had a chance to show that he could overachieve that season, just by putting the team in a position to squeak into the playoffs.

Ah the memories.

Not top-5. Never. This team has not had a player that has come close to realizing that kind of potential. And that is why Garbo is higher than 29, in spite of being a very different player on the road than at home. To me that fact, which I don't deny for a second, only reinforced his value, since the road record was pretty horrendous that season, and the home record was close to matching some of the more elite teams. They were actually 4 games better at home than the Pistons, and one game worse than the Spurs with the home record.

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