Save Andrea Bargnani (an italian fan)
Old 03-25-2008, 07:16 AM   #1 (permalink)
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hi everybody, i'm gimmo from italy and i'm obviously an Andrea Bargnani's big fan, so please help me in my personal battle: to fire coach Sam Mitchell.

Not only because Calderon is a better player than Tj, and that's for sure, but even because he's dangerously changing Andrea's way to play basketball. Believe me, Andrea represents a great match-up threat to opposing teams. But right now he's used almost exclusively as a three-point gunner and that makes use of only a sliver of his abilities as a basketball player. He was drafted number one overall because of the myriad of skills he brought to the table as a seven-footer. If he's just going to be planted outside the three-point arc all the time then Sam Mitchell might as well start Jason Kapono at starting five. But we don't want this. Isn't it??? Andrea is such a difficult player to guard because he can put the ball on the floor or hit long jumpers. By planting him exclusively behind the three-point line on offense like he is nowadays, Sam Mitchell has basically reduced il Mago to a spot-up shooter, severely limiting the use of several of his other assets. Take care of Andrea and Jose, trade Tj end fire Smitch

ps: sorry for my english, it sucks
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Old 03-25-2008, 07:48 AM   #2 (permalink)
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well i agree with you for the most part.

i don't think Sam has done Bargnani a lot of good considering how much talent the kid has. But at the same time, he has minorly improved parts of Bargnani's game. Right now, Andrea is rebounding the ball better and at least has some kind of inside presence. Something he really didn't have before.

Still, i don't think Sam has much of a system in place. He seems to expect players to do certain things, but doesn't seem to draw up plays or schemes by which they should do them. Like, i'm sure that Sam would rather have Bargs take it inside instead of floating around the three point line.... but what of it? I wonder how a coach like Jerry Sloane would have taught Andrea.

yes. Sam has dissapointed me in this regard.
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Old 03-25-2008, 08:47 AM   #3 (permalink)
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No offence Gimmo..as you're entitled to your opinion but Andrea's struggles are his own. Last year Andrea was allowed to basically play to his strengths to get accustomed to teh league and what did he do? Primarily a spot up 3 point shooter. This year he's been coached heavily to learn the game in the paint and he's struggled huge. He let a demotion from the starting lineup kill his confidence and every game he comes out and misses a couple quick shots, he gets frustrated, commits a few silly fouls and rides the bench for the remainder of the game.

I'm not saying Sam and the staff are angels and they couldn't have done some different things but to say that Sam is at fault for Andrea shooting threes and that's it is a gross misrepresentation and severly biased opinion... in my opinion.

Andrea will adjust in time i'm optimistic and the coaching staff will be there helping him...but in the meantime he needs to get some steady confidence that doesn't rely on his early shot success so much as setting a few good screens and grabbing a few boards or playing some good defense and he'll be fine.
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:22 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I agree that who gets early fouls is Andrea, but who benchs him after that is Sam. Till the game against Denver.

I agree the guy has to defend and that is what makes you minutes on the court, this was said by Sam ... why he benchs Andrea when he struggles with his shot, if the guy is defending well. And if the guy is always at the perimeter in the offensive end, maybe it's because Sam wanna that ... or maybe Andrea is doing the same that TJ, what he wants. I just think both of them are trying to do what the coach says their. And if they are doing what they want, then I say "fire Mitchell" because he can not control his players.

Andrea has his faults, but Sam hasn't done the most correct to get the best from Andrea either. Sam is almost a rookie coach, it's nice people defend him, but it would be nice too that when he was wrong people said it.
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:45 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rapsfan087 View Post
Sam is almost a rookie coach, it's nice people defend him, but it would be nice too that when he was wrong people said it.
Several of us are sincere (and fair) of Sam in our criticisms...so dont' dare sell us short. We will admit he struggles with lineups and substitutions from time to time. We will admit he's still not the strongest late game play devisor but he is improving.

What would really be nice is for Sam to get some of the credit when the team does well and not just the call for his head when they do not.... but Raptor fans have a history of being a bit imbalanced in that regard
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:13 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rapsfan087 View Post
I agree that who gets early fouls is Andrea, but who benchs him after that is Sam. Till the game against Denver.

I agree the guy has to defend and that is what makes you minutes on the court, this was said by Sam ... why he benchs Andrea when he struggles with his shot, if the guy is defending well. And if the guy is always at the perimeter in the offensive end, maybe it's because Sam wanna that ... or maybe Andrea is doing the same that TJ, what he wants. I just think both of them are trying to do what the coach says their. And if they are doing what they want, then I say "fire Mitchell" because he can not control his players.

Andrea has his faults, but Sam hasn't done the most correct to get the best from Andrea either. Sam is almost a rookie coach, it's nice people defend him, but it would be nice too that when he was wrong people said it.

The problem is that when Andrea's shot isn't falling the times that he helps out in other areas are far and few between. In fact he usually hangs his head and does very little else to justify even being on the court (when he twists away from contact in the paint on the defensive end, but still hits the player and allows the and one makes me want to put my fist through the screen). I don't know any coach in any sport at any level who rewards a player not putting in effort with extended minutes.

The team as a whole still functions better on both ends with Rasho on the court. Why does Sam even keep Andrea in the starting line-up?
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:16 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Several of us are sincere (and fair) of Sam in our criticisms...so dont' dare sell us short. We will admit he struggles with lineups and substitutions from time to time. We will admit he's still not the strongest late game play devisor but he is improving.

What would really be nice is for Sam to get some of the credit when the team does well and not just the call for his head when they do not.... but Raptor fans have a history of being a bit imbalanced in that regard

lol, this is my second year like a Raptors fan, so I guess I'm not still inside the Raptors fans history. Maybe I'm biased because I have seen a lot of european basketball, where the coach is God. Maybe I am asking Sam too much ? It could be.

And I dare to say what I have said because you are saying that Sam has nothing to do with the Bargnani's problems, and I think it's false. Maybe I would not have to say "people" and have to say you SWAN.

I like Sam, before this year I just wanted he learned more X's and O's. Lately it looks like he needs to fix more things. Maybe that's the reason Sam isn't getting more props. Who knows.
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:30 AM   #8 (permalink)
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The problem is that when Andrea's shot isn't falling the times that he helps out in other areas are far and few between. In fact he usually hangs his head and does very little else to justify even being on the court (when he twists away from contact in the paint on the defensive end, but still hits the player and allows the and one makes me want to put my fist through the screen). I don't know any coach in any sport at any level who rewards a player not putting in effort with extended minutes.

The team as a whole still functions better on both ends with Rasho on the court. Why does Sam even keep Andrea in the starting line-up?
Why Sam puts Bargs at the perimeter (in the offensive end) if he wanna a player like Rasho?

In the defensive end, I really think Bargnani is improving.

Quote:
I don't know any coach in any sport at any level who rewards a player not putting in effort with extended minutes.
I just think the guy is sometimes lost, not that he doesn't put the enough effort, you have never heard the word "potential" in sports?, guy is learning.
And if the player struggles, bench him, explain him his faults and then put him in the game and thus the guy will try and maybe he learns. Not put him in the doghouse.
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:40 AM   #9 (permalink)
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And I dare to say what I have said because you are saying that Sam has nothing to do with the Bargnani's problems, and I think it's false. Maybe I would not have to say "people" and have to say you SWAN.
I am not saying Sam has nothing to do with Bargnani's problems, but i am saying you are putting more on Sam than is deserved. Andrea is an nba player now...a man and its' up to him to bring it consistantly and do what his coaching staff asks of him...if he fails to do that he will not get burn. That's life in pro sports. Maybe Sam hasn't been doing everything he can for Andrea..i'ts impossible to say because we dont' know what goes on behind closed doors...we can only speculate, but it's apparent to me that Andrea has been given plenty of opportunity to take his minutes and run with them, but he's struggled with consistancy. Since he went back into the starting lineup he's had the opportunity and rarely does he sieze it. That's on him to improve. I doubt very much Sam and his staff are just leaving him alone and saying ' Andrea will figure it out '. I'm quite willing to be they're trying everything they know to help him improve...and maybe this is where they're coming up short, but again we can only speculate. It's not fair to Sam and his staff to place the blame soley on them and excuse Andrea from it.
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:54 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rapsfan087 View Post
Why Sam puts Bargs at the perimeter (in the offensive end) if he wanna a player like Rasho?

In the defensive end, I really think Bargnani is improving.



I just think the guy is sometimes lost, not that he doesn't put the enough effort, you have never heard the word "potential" in sports?, guy is learning.
And if the player struggles, bench him, explain him his faults and then put him in the game and thus the guy will try and maybe he learns. Not put him in the doghouse.

He's not in the doghouse. Sam has publicly stated and defended him several times recently saying it's going to take a while for him to develop and we all need to be patient.
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:56 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I am not saying Sam has nothing to do with Bargnani's problems, but i am saying you are putting more on Sam than is deserved. Andrea is an nba player now...a man and its' up to him to bring it consistantly and do what his coaching staff asks of him...if he fails to do that he will not get burn. That's life in pro sports. Maybe Sam hasn't been doing everything he can for Andrea..i'ts impossible to say because we dont' know what goes on behind closed doors...we can only speculate, but it's apparent to me that Andrea has been given plenty of opportunity to take his minutes and run with them, but he's struggled with consistancy. Since he went back into the starting lineup he's had the opportunity and rarely does he sieze it. That's on him to improve. I doubt very much Sam and his staff are just leaving him alone and saying ' Andrea will figure it out '. I'm quite willing to be they're trying everything they know to help him improve...and maybe this is where they're coming up short, but again we can only speculate. It's not fair to Sam and his staff to place the blame soley on them and excuse Andrea from it.
Andrea is a kid, and if you are telling me that all the rookies have to man up, I tell you that what they really have to do is to learn. You can man up when you know what you have to make. When you don't know how to play the center spot, it's difficult you man up. And not, the knowledge has nothing to do with the rocks/cojones.

I can agree that maybe I am asking Sam too much (I have said it before this), but I'm sure you are asking Andrea too much, he started to learn to play center this summer.

You:
Quote:
It's not fair to Sam and his staff to place the blame soley on them and excuse Andrea from it.
Me:
Quote:
Andrea has his faults, but Sam hasn't done the most correct to get the best from Andrea either.
I think we ,more or less, agree.
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Old 03-25-2008, 11:11 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Andrea scored 16 points in 12 minutes and Sam benched him after after 2 minutes of the second quarter! I've never seen anything like that.
He shot 7/3 and 2/3 without plays for him. Was he playing bad? I don't think so. It doesn't matter if he plays good or not, Mitchell doesn't trust him.
In the third quarter he didin't score but drew fouls.
Rasho had the same pt of Andrea and he didn't grab more rebounds or scored as much as him, and with Andrea on the floor Camby had to play away from the basket to follow him, while with Rasho he was defending next to the basket.
By the way I don't think Mitchell is a good coach.
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Old 03-25-2008, 11:12 AM   #13 (permalink)
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He's not in the doghouse. Sam has publicly stated and defended him several times recently saying it's going to take a while for him to develop and we all need to be patient.
Well, maybe he isn't in the doghouse, but till the last game ( kudos to Sam, he didn't bench him and Bargs made a good 1st quarter), when he got the second foul he didn't come back to the court till the 3rd quarter (here I can be wrong and maybe Bargs has played more 2nd quarters that I think, I dunno) and Sam put in Humps or Graham or Primo. Hey, I cheered for Primo, but seriously, I don't understand why don't you don't let Bargs play more minutes, I really think the guy is better than that 3 ( nice guys, nice workers, but not so skilled). More when you know you are not going to put him in for the last minutes.

Hey, Sam isn't the bad guy in this story, but he has been his faults in this issue. JMO.
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Old 03-25-2008, 11:29 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Andrea scored 16 points in 12 minutes and Sam benched him after after 2 minutes of the second quarter! I've never seen anything like that.
He shot 7/3 and 2/3 without plays for him. Was he playing bad? I don't think so. It doesn't matter if he plays good or not, Mitchell doesn't trust him.
In the third quarter he didin't score but drew fouls.
Rasho had the same pt of Andrea and he didn't grab more rebounds or scored as much as him, and with Andrea on the floor Camby had to play away from the basket to follow him, while with Rasho he was defending next to the basket.
By the way I don't think Mitchell is a good coach.
He picked up two fouls after six minutes. Sam left him in for the rest of the quarter. He played two and a half minutes into the second and IIRC missed his first two shots which were wide open and short which is usually a sign of fatigue and was replaced by Rasho. He played the entire third quarter because Rasho replaced Bosh and Sam went with Rasho in the fourth because at that point he was playing much better. What the hell is wrong with that?
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Old 03-25-2008, 12:45 PM   #15 (permalink)
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He picked up two fouls after six minutes. Sam left him in for the rest of the quarter. He played two and a half minutes into the second and IIRC missed his first two shots which were wide open and short which is usually a sign of fatigue and was replaced by Rasho. He played the entire third quarter because Rasho replaced Bosh and Sam went with Rasho in the fourth because at that point he was playing much better. What the hell is wrong with that?
Thank you!

And as for being pulled in the 2nd quarter...there are other players on the team... only Bosh should play close to the entire game because theres' not even a close replacment for him.
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Old 03-25-2008, 01:31 PM   #16 (permalink)
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my opinion is that everybody is doing their best to help andreea become a better player (andreea and sam included). But, that being said, I think Sam is not the right coach for Andreea. Is this in itself enough reason to fire him? Probably not. Unfortunately, this is NOT the only thing Sam is not doing right ...
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Old 03-25-2008, 01:52 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I'd like to See Andrea et up on his toes a little and shoot consistantly with more arc.

That is all.

He's fine other than that.

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Old 03-25-2008, 02:28 PM   #18 (permalink)
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if only we had Yogi to show Bargs his real future :P
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Old 03-25-2008, 03:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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We have no system. The offence is a mess, our D is even worse.

On O, the last couple games I've noticed we have been even more forceful of running this play 50 times a game:

1. toss Bosh the ball in the high post
2. watch

Bosh has gotten so dangerous that he's almost always being double teamed, only unlike a double team on a power guy like Shaq in his prime, with Bosh they stick one guy on him, and one guy ahead of him to pick him up after Bosh beats his man.

The problem is that nobody else initiates their offense or puts pressure on the D aside from Bosh, TJ and Calderon, and our PG's have a tendency to play out of control and passive, respectively.

Bargnani IMO should get the ball exactly where Dirk does: 10-15 feet away, back probably to the basket initially, then read the D and his man and either drive, post up, or shoot over his man. Instead he plays a face up game where he's always outside the 3 point line. Our team could learn a lesson from 80's and especially 70's teams who ignored the 3 point line (or in the case of the 70's there was no 3 point line) and got better position closer to the basket.

------

Then on D we're just fucked. Nobody trusts anyone; Bosh has always been a pylon but at least he used to be good at helpside D, whereas now nobody protects the paint and when we play man-to-man we just get killed by teams that move the ball and/or create penetration off the dribble or cut and screen a lot.
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Old 03-25-2008, 03:12 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'd like to See Andrea et up on his toes a little and shoot consistantly with more arc.

That is all.

He's fine other than that.

Good call, me too. He shoots so many shots flat footed, and doesn't put enough arc on the ball. If he changed those two things he would have a shot that looks a lot like Dirk because Andrea's form is fantastic.

A good sign is that most of Andrea's misses either hit the front of the rim, or (in rare cases) are a bit too strong. There's also the occasional air ball. But he's seldom off to the left or right, meaning he's got a good stroke, but bad release or positioning. He's still not able to get his shot of how he likes it while playing at an NBA pace. This should improve in time though.
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