RaptorsForum Blog: Hot Air
Old 08-12-2009, 10:49 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Courtesy of LX.

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I can remember off-seasons, and not that long ago, when information, particularly Raptor-related in nature, simply dried up long before August arrived. Now there is still a fair amount of material being generated, discussions in various media corners, and some expectations of still more news to come. It seems to be the season of ranking the off-season moves of each NBA team, and soon there will be rankings of expected records for a season that is yet to begin. Yes - it is nice to get through the summer months with something to gnaw on, but I strongly dislike the way the game all-too-often gets looked at during this span when nothing happens on the floor.

There is too much emphasis on statistical wizardry, and far too much analysis of players as lone individuals. Turkoglu has been thought of as overpaid due to his age and his production peaking years ago. He’s 30. Why do I remember so many solid NBA players having their greatest successes post-30? And why does anyone look at a single individual’s production as if it was unconnected to the other four guys that shared the floor with him at the same time? Hedo has been on six 50+ win teams in his nine years of playing in this league. He knows how to join forces with his teammates to win consistently. So could Dr. Jack Ramsay please take over the internet and tell me how he helps my team, and what my team needs to do make sure his best years are still to come? And kind Dr. Jack, could you please wear one of those great pant suits from the 70’s? No?

Well let me try, and let me begin with his ability to simply execute plays, without panicking, be it in a system of tremendous ball movement with the Kings; or a much simpler offense in Disneyville, where he needed to be a part of spacing out the floor and creating within the spaces that were afforded to him. In both cases he learned to read and react and performed well within a fairly free style of play. He’s going to be good playing alongside players with a similar, unselfish mindset. And that is what he should find here, with a chance to team up with another Chris Webber calibre of player and force teams into bad matchups while forming something that could look like the baby that his Kings and his Magic might make if they had…you know…fertilised a basketball. It would seem to have been a factor in his choosing Toronto over Portland. And with depth added to the roster defensively, his defensive abilities should not be anything that hurts the team.

Overpaid? That’s a little silly to suggest considering that Portland was already willing to pay him about as much. So how impossible would it really be to see him as a tradable commodity if that is where the team needs to go? I’m really looking forward to seeing how truly valuable he can be here while part of a pretty strong starting lineup and a complete and well-balanced bench. Dr. Jack would surely give some indication of how he thought Triano might make it all work, and what might need particular attention. I’d really like to see some of that. I’d like someone with the know-how, to get inside the head of Triano and distill some of the thoughts that might be rolling around in there. Instead we get endless rankings that always end up proven horribly wrong, and involve tinkering with numbers to the point of missing how the game is actually played, or we get an over-analysis of the game as a business. And the team-oriented aspects of the game get lost in the shuffle more and more, year after year.

Maybe the dry spells that once occurred at this time of year meant that people who knew the game, wanted to wait to see the game played before surmising too much. Here in Toronto, it’s hard to deny that a team has been assembled. Where borderline players were forced into roles as starters last season, we now have players like Jack, Nesterovich, and perhaps Wright coming off the bench with a good number of games as proficient starters under their belts. We just need to see them assembled together in shorts and shiny shoes before we can really say where they appear to be headed, the noobs and the knowledgeable, the internet ranters and the paid pundits - all eyes need to be on the game.

Until then, this is a team that screams “the sum is greater than the parts”, particularly relative to the last couple of seasons. There is a good amount of experience, a good amount of still-improving youth, and an all-around hunger to get results. The fate of each player appears very much tied to the fate of the team, and the character of these guys has been shown to be about the game and the team before themselves. So to look only at what Chris Bosh might or might not do a year from now in another off-season, is to miss so much and make me feel like I’m in more of a desert of basketball wisdom than ever before, with the more-than-adequate interest and discussion blowing like wind along the dunes. So I’ll go along for now, blowing my own hot air…
Source - Raptors Blog Hot Air - Toronto Raptors Blog & Message Forum
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:28 AM   #2 (permalink)
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nice work lx. always god to read something well written in the blogosphere.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:49 AM   #3 (permalink)
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nice work lx. always god to read something well written in the blogosphere.
And 1
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:51 AM   #4 (permalink)
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nice work lx. always god to read something well written in the blogosphere.
LX is god

LX once again a really good piece. I wish I had some writing skills
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:57 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Just a couple questions, are you saying stats are quite irrelevant?

And are you saying you're tired of of people debating topics, as a quick run down.

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Old 08-12-2009, 12:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
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There is too much emphasis on statistical wizardry
Thank you. It seems that people rely way too much on statistics that analysts seem to pull out of their asses nowadays, when they should just be focusing on what they actually see in game.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:18 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Stats are just another way of reading them game, No way an average Joe like us would be able to watch every single NBA game out there. We can then look at players we don't get to watch night in and night out and compare them to other performers in the league. Stats are good, though to an extant.

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Old 08-12-2009, 01:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Stats are HUGE, they show tendencies.

Relying on them 100% is a bad idea however.
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Old 08-12-2009, 03:46 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Stats are HUGE, they show tendencies.

Relying on them 100% is a bad idea however.
Yep - my problem is that the game is getting away from the human aspects that makes it worthwhile. And when there is nothing happening on the floor to actually draw from, then all the tossing around of numbers inevitable reflects very little reality. And ultimately my problem is that most of the stats we see this time of year is centered around individual players outside of the context of the other guys on the floor. Again that does nothing to reflect any kind of reality.
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:03 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Yep - my problem is that the game is getting away from the human aspects that makes it worthwhile. And when there is nothing happening on the floor to actually draw from, then all the tossing around of numbers inevitable reflects very little reality. And ultimately my problem is that most of the stats we see this time of year is centered around individual players outside of the context of the other guys on the floor. Again that does nothing to reflect any kind of reality.
How are stats getting away from humas aspects? Everything is the same now as it was when the league became. Stats always exsist, and sha'll always exsist. It seems to me though, you have lost 1 to many debates that include stats and are upset.

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Old 08-12-2009, 05:05 PM   #11 (permalink)
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that's just ridiculous duca. there are all sorts of intangaibles that don't get counted in stats. and given that lx is one of the more knowledgeable posters here, i doubt quite highly that his point comes from being upset.
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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is it really that ridiculous? I am curious to why he is trying to dismiss stats. Period. I mean, I agree stats are only part of telling you about a player, and not a significant part. Please delight me with your reasoning.

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Old 08-12-2009, 05:12 PM   #13 (permalink)
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is it really that ridiculous? I am curious to why he is trying to dismiss stats. Period. I mean, I agree stats are only part of telling you about a player, and not a significant part. Please delight me with your reasoning.

Cheers
if you had spent any time here prior to joining, you would have seen this topic rehashed over and over, and you would already know lx's position on this. he is not dismissing stats entirely, he's trying to say that at this time of year, when no games are being played, there is too much reliance on stats to try to project what the future will look like. that's not an outright dismissal by any stretch of the imagination.

but feel free to just make assumptions, i suppose...
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
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The only stat that matters is the final score - Bill Russell
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:18 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I agree that the emphasis on statistics is overwrought at times. Particularly this time of year when there aren't any actual results to point to. Ultimately the only stat that can measure the "intangibles" of a roster are wins and losses.
I certainly hope "the sum is greater than the parts" this season. That's exactly what happened during the Raps revival season of 06-07, only the "parts" look to be of better quality this time around.
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:26 PM   #16 (permalink)
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if you had spent any time here prior to joining, you would have seen this topic rehashed over and over, and you would already know lx's position on this. he is not dismissing stats entirely, he's trying to say that at this time of year, when no games are being played, there is too much reliance on stats to try to project what the future will look like. that's not an outright dismissal by any stretch of the imagination.

but feel free to just make assumptions, i suppose...
And I am agreeing, that stats don't mean everything. If you don't like my disposition fine, but you the one making the assumption saying I should already know his feeling towards stats. So don't jump on me for making assumption from an article, which I took as differently then you. I agree, that stats are just a part of the game, let's move on.

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Old 08-12-2009, 05:29 PM   #17 (permalink)
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you're a strange cat duca...
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
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lol, why am I a strange cat?

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Old 08-12-2009, 06:36 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
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How are stats getting away from humas aspects? Everything is the same now as it was when the league became. Stats always exsist, and sha'll always exsist. It seems to me though, you have lost 1 to many debates that include stats and are upset.

Cheers


Blocks didn't always exist.

Charges don't officially exist yet, but probably will at some point in the future.

Half rebounds don't exist, but probably should. Like half sacks.

You can tear apart any statistic.

Somebody can have an attrocious game from a statistical standpoint, but their contributions in that game may be invaluable.

Some guys may be stat-stuffers except when it matters.

Stats really are pointless. You actually can dismiss them entirely. If you`re good with statistics you can find them and twist them to fit any argument that you want.

But if you have a good knack for analyzing basketball as it is being played, why would you need to see a boxscore.


MOST IMPORTANTLY. Is their any statistic that DIRECTLY keeps track of bad defense, or good defense that didn`t result in a block or steal.

No, there isn`t.
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:45 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Blocks didn't always exist.

Charges don't officially exist yet, but probably will at some point in the future.

Half rebounds don't exist, but probably should. Like half sacks.

You can tear apart any statistic.

Somebody can have an attrocious game from a statistical standpoint, but their contributions in that game may be invaluable.

Some guys may be stat-stuffers except when it matters.

Stats really are pointless. You actually can dismiss them entirely. If you`re good with statistics you can find them and twist them to fit any argument that you want.

But if you have a good knack for analyzing basketball as it is being played, why would you need to see a boxscore.


MOST IMPORTANTLY. Is their any statistic that DIRECTLY keeps track of bad defense, or good defense that didn`t result in a block or steal.

No, there isn`t.
Are you just ignorant? Or are you just ignorant? If you were to read this whole discussion thread you will see where I state that I agree that stat's are just one part of evaluating players. I'm not going to debate something I agree with.

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