Raptors working hard to move Lowry/Derozan, price very high? - Page 8
Old 12-24-2013, 05:09 PM   #141 (permalink)
looking forward to Bargnani getting traded

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Lowry's value is imo as high as it will ever be, we've already seen DeMar decline this year Masai shouldn't wait until Lowry does to finally make a deal.
When did demars decline?
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Old 12-24-2013, 05:57 PM   #142 (permalink)
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But when has that ever happened? What stars came to play with Lebron James? Mo Williams?... Who came to play with Dwight Howard...? You can't draft that type of player. That player needs to be developed in the right culture. Players with their eye on a championship don't want to play with a team focused on a draftee because they know how long it will take to get to a championship level.
Yep. And you also have to take into account the fact that our franchise has long been viewed as little more than a "farm team" where players go to hone their skills and put up numbers before moving on to greener pastures.

No one would come here JUST to play with Wiggins (or whoever the top pick is). They'd have to think that they'd have a chance to win games and make the playoffs at least.
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Old 12-24-2013, 06:00 PM   #143 (permalink)
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When did demars decline?
Demar started the season on fire but he's been very inefficient since then and his TS% is actually below the league average.
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Old 12-24-2013, 06:04 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Yep. And you also have to take into account the fact that our franchise has long been viewed as little more than a "farm team" where players go to hone their skills and put up numbers before moving on to greener pastures.

No one would come here JUST to play with Wiggins (or whoever the top pick is). They'd have to think that they'd have a chance to win games and make the playoffs at least.
Did you ignore Dan's post or what?

Nobody's coming here anyway, Wiggins or another top prospect would definitely give free agents more hope to win here and more of a reason to sign here than Demar and Amir.
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Old 12-24-2013, 07:19 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Who ever said anything about guarantee? There are no guarantees with any strategy. What you get with tanking is a higher chance to succeed than a treadmilling team.

DeMar, JV, Ross, and Amir is not a core that will ever win a championship. At best they become like this year's Atlanta Hawks and are a solid team in need of a franchise player to make the push in order to become a contender. What pro-tank guys suggest is that we grab that player now so we're not stuck in their predicament.

And also, Cleveland is about the worst a tanking team can do. They consistently picked guys slotted to be picked way later. They wasted assets. Masai will not do that, judging by what we've seen so far. Sacramento was cursed with the worst owners in the league, which we do not have, and Washington's GM is terrible too. If your examples of tanks gone wrong are all teams with shitty management, perhaps it means those teams weren't actually tanking but rather just sucked because of their GM's incompetence. If that's the case those teams are destined to fail not because they tank, but because they have shitty management who don't know what to do with assets. Those examples mean nothing to us, as that is not a dilemma we have.
In order to tank properly you need to start the season like shit from the get go. No one said that Amir, DD, Ross and JV will win a championship but at the same time it's not like you are looking at bad contracts or players that are at the end of their career. All signs show that MU isn't looking to tank. You do not attract players by being a losing franchise. You don't develop talent by being the punching bag of the league. This had its chance to tank hard and they didn't, and I believe MU will get this team better via trades and maybe free agency, not by being a joke of a franchise that no one wants to be affiliated with.
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Old 12-24-2013, 08:45 PM   #146 (permalink)
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In order to tank properly you need to start the season like shit from the get go. No one said that Amir, DD, Ross and JV will win a championship but at the same time it's not like you are looking at bad contracts or players that are at the end of their career. All signs show that MU isn't looking to tank. You do not attract players by being a losing franchise. You don't develop talent by being the punching bag of the league. This had its chance to tank hard and they didn't, and I believe MU will get this team better via trades and maybe free agency, not by being a joke of a franchise that no one wants to be affiliated with.
MU just came in this summer, it's not as if he chose not to tank after Bosh left. I see no signs showing he doesn't want to tank. IMO it looks more like he wanted to tank after the Rudy trade, then the team turned out better than he expected. He's been very quiet since then, so you can't really tell either way.

We've been stuck at 9th-11th the last few years, that hasn't really helped attract players or develop them either. Fact of the matter is, no matter how bad your team has been, if you have cap space which we should have in two years (unless we extend guys like Lowry, Vasquez, etc.) , you will be able to sign players. If the money is there, if there's a decent team, players will sign there. Look at Phoenix. They were widely considered a 15-win team before the start of the season. They offered Eric Gordon a contract and he signed their offer sheet. Had New Orleans not matched he would have ended up on that team. You guys greatly overestimate how much your reputation matters when signing players. And if a player, let's say Bledsoe since he's someone I hope we target, has a choice of signing with a team with Amir as its best player vs a team with Wiggins/Parker/Exum/Embiid/Randle/Smart, their choice is clear.
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Old 12-24-2013, 09:01 PM   #147 (permalink)
looking forward to Bargnani getting traded

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MU just came in this summer, it's not as if he chose not to tank after Bosh left. I see no signs showing he doesn't want to tank. IMO it looks more like he wanted to tank after the Rudy trade, then the team turned out better than he expected. He's been very quiet since then, so you can't really tell either way.

We've been stuck at 9th-11th the last few years, that hasn't really helped attract players or develop them either. Fact of the matter is, no matter how bad your team has been, if you have cap space which we should have in two years (unless we extend guys like Lowry, Vasquez, etc.) , you will be able to sign players. If the money is there, if there's a decent team, players will sign there. Look at Phoenix. They were widely considered a 15-win team before the start of the season. They offered Eric Gordon a contract and he signed their offer sheet. Had New Orleans not matched he would have ended up on that team. You guys greatly overestimate how much your reputation matters when signing players. And if a player, let's say Bledsoe since he's someone I hope we target, has a choice of signing with a team with Amir as its best player vs a team with Wiggins/Parker/Exum/Embiid/Randle/Smart, their choice is clear.
Man I don't get it, why are you getting thumbs down on your posts? Probably cause you're still pro tank after the trade lol
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Old 12-24-2013, 09:43 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Man I don't get it, why are you getting thumbs down on your posts? Probably cause you're still pro tank after the trade lol
I don't really care about thumbs down...treadmill is now the majority because we won a few games after the trade. Had I posted that last week the flip floppers would have thumbed that up. Instead of actually debating the points which is the purpose of a forum, people hide behind thumbs.
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Old 12-24-2013, 10:09 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Still waiting for Masai to blow it up
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Old 12-24-2013, 10:13 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Still waiting for Masai to blow it up
You'll be waiting a while
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Old 12-24-2013, 10:17 PM   #151 (permalink)
looking forward to Bargnani getting traded

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I don't really care about thumbs down...treadmill is now the majority because we won a few games after the trade. Had I posted that last week the flip floppers would have thumbed that up. Instead of actually debating the points which is the purpose of a forum, people hide behind thumbs.
Ya I agree with you man, by the way awesome picture haha
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Old 12-24-2013, 10:40 PM   #152 (permalink)
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Man I don't get it, why are you getting thumbs down on your posts? Probably cause you're still pro tank after the trade lol
He talked bad about Demar, the haters come out soon after.
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:16 PM   #153 (permalink)
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MU just came in this summer, it's not as if he chose not to tank after Bosh left. I see no signs showing he doesn't want to tank. IMO it looks more like he wanted to tank after the Rudy trade, then the team turned out better than he expected. He's been very quiet since then, so you can't really tell either way.
Not sure why people keep thinking that dealing Rudy was a "tank" move. This team was playing horrid bball WITH Rudy.... so if Ujiri really wanted to lose, the best way to do it would have been to keep him and deal with his contract in the off-season. I still maintain that there won't be any tanking going on until we see either DD or Amir or JV get dealt. Young guys with a lot of upside who have some game.
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:27 PM   #154 (permalink)
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Not sure why people keep thinking that dealing Rudy was a "tank" move. This team was playing horrid bball WITH Rudy.... so if Ujiri really wanted to lose, the best way to do it would have been to keep him and deal with his contract in the off-season. I still maintain that there won't be any tanking going on until we see either DD or Amir or JV get dealt. Young guys with a lot of upside who have some game.
Agreed. This team isn't going into tank mode anytime soon. In order for MU to trade DD, Amir or even JV we will need to bring plenty of value back, because if he doesn't it will be an absurd to give up our talent for peanuts. If we go into a full rebuild value means picks or young players. Young players we already have here, unless you bring back a better fit, but fit for what exactly? We don't even know what we are aiming.
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:29 PM   #155 (permalink)
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I'd agree that trading Gay wasn't a clear tanking move, he was simply a poor fit, just like Bargs, and also a pretty hefty contract. However, the next move(s), especially if they involve DD, would clearly indicate a desire to tank, at least to me. Not so much trading Lowry, because if Masai is not sold on Kyle being our starting PG long-term, trading him becomes simply a good value maintenance move.
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:45 PM   #156 (permalink)
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Not sure why people keep thinking that dealing Rudy was a "tank" move. This team was playing horrid bball WITH Rudy.... so if Ujiri really wanted to lose, the best way to do it would have been to keep him and deal with his contract in the off-season. I still maintain that there won't be any tanking going on until we see either DD or Amir or JV get dealt. Young guys with a lot of upside who have some game.
If you listen to the stuff Masai was saying around the time of the trade and right after, he was talking about rebuilding and saying stuff like "I've been going to a lot of college games, I'll tell you that much", etc.

This team minus Lowry is a trainwreck. Vasquez is a good backup PG but should not start unless your intent is to lose. DeMar's scoring has regressed recently and with Lowry gone he will face even more defensive pressure. JV has been struggling at times this year and he is definitely not going to derail any tanking. Amir is playing out of his mind but that will also decline with Lowry gone and teams noticing how well he's playing, even if it doesn't completely there's only so much he can do. That is why we can keep most of these guys, because they have upside but have not yet reached that potential. Our squad without Lowry, assuming we get a package similar to Felton + Hardaway Jr, is not even a decent team but yet they have the potential to improve in the future which is why we can and should keep them through a tanking year.
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:51 PM   #157 (permalink)
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I'd agree that trading Gay wasn't a clear tanking move, he was simply a poor fit, just like Bargs, and also a pretty hefty contract. However, the next move(s), especially if they involve DD, would clearly indicate a desire to tank, at least to me. Not so much trading Lowry, because if Masai is not sold on Kyle being our starting PG long-term, trading him becomes simply a good value maintenance move.
My thoughts exactly. Rudy and Kyle weren't really in the long term plans.... not surprising if they're both gone by the deadline.

Maybe my head is in the clouds but I don't think that this team minus Lowry is as bad as some might think. To be clear I'm not saying that we won't struggle at times.... but I don't think we'll be bad enough to be a bottom 5 team.
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:56 PM   #158 (permalink)
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You'll be waiting a while
You have no idea (none of us do) but yet you make it sound like a fact.. Mind telling me the lotto numbers for the next week?
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Old 12-25-2013, 12:20 AM   #159 (permalink)
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You have no idea (none of us do) but yet you make it sound like a fact.. Mind telling me the lotto numbers for the next week?
You seriously think MU is going to blow up this team?
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Old 12-25-2013, 12:25 AM   #160 (permalink)
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You seriously think MU is going to blow up this team?
We might have different definitions of blowing it up, but to me It would be moving Lowry and DD. So yes I do think he will blow it up
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