Raptors defense is historically bad?
Old 12-03-2009, 12:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Yikes.

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Your eyes aren't deceiving you, the raw numbers aren't hiding or obscuring or inflating anything. The Toronto Raptors are the worst defensive team you've ever seen.

Honestly. Per-possession, factor in the rest of the league's aptitude, and you're watching a historically bad defensive team. The team's slow pace may hide things — entering last night's loss the Raptors weren't even the worst team in the NBA in points allowed — but you know better. You don't have to be up on the Four Factors, you don't have to write "per 100 possessions" beside your name on every cheque you endorse. The Raptors are the absolute pits.

On Wednesday, the Hawks scored over 152 points per 100 possessions, an astounding number. You can see the raw total of points above, and beyond that? The group shot 59 percent, 52 percent from long range. It hit 31 free throws, grabbed an offensive rebound after over 41 percent of its misses and only turned the ball over nine times.

The Raptors? They played well, offensively. Well over their mark of around 112 points per 100 possessions per game (right under 120 in this loss), but what's the point when you lose by 31?

Think about that. If the Raptors averaged this sort of offensive output over a season, they would lead the NBA on that end by a huge margin. And yet the Raptors still lost by 31.

Atlanta had 37 assists on 52 made baskets and found open seam after open space in that Toronto defense. Nine players finished with double-digit points, with Mo Evans falling just short at nine points in 14 minutes.
LINK - Yahoo!Sports
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
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We're a loss to NJ away from possibly dethroning the Clippers as the laughingstock of the NBA.

Hurray.
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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37 assists on 52 baskets signifies the lack of defensive plan
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:42 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Or the lack of being able to assemble five guys on the floor with any testicular fortitude.
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:01 PM   #5 (permalink)
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According to Hollinger's defensive efficiency machine, the difference between us and the 29th team (Memphis) is the same as between them and the 20th, or between 10th (Miami) and 1st (Boston). That's pretty sad. We're leagues worse than anyone. If we were as "good" defensively as Golden State and Memphis we'd be like above .500
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Old 12-04-2009, 09:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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One thing is for sure. You don't need stats to see how pathetic their defense is.
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Old 12-04-2009, 09:56 AM   #7 (permalink)
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one thing said that Bargs was the worst rebounding Center of all time
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Old 12-04-2009, 10:11 AM   #8 (permalink)
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one thing said that Bargs was the worst rebounding Center of all time
That is no suprise.
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Old 12-04-2009, 11:08 AM   #9 (permalink)
wondering why he gets so much hate???? Freedom of speech right???

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Can anyone tell me why there's so much hate for Bargs? He makes 10mill and gets 18/7 and will improve with the right coaching staff. Players don't raise their defensive awareness with age, they need to be exposed to it. People want Bargs to avg 20/10 like he's making 15million, chillout. So if we please all u barg haters and trade the guy we get a centre that makes 10mill like okafor and he gets 10/10. Bosh most definitely leaves and we have no pf. Toronto will not attract any of the big name free agents, we now have nothing. Getting a defensive center won't make triano a better coach, make Jose keep players in front of him, make hedo take the game more seriously. Bargs is the most complete player on offense for this team. He has an inside and outside game, the perimeter d has to get better the pick n roll d has to get better before everyone can see that it's not his fault. One more thing Bargs is better as a pf, we can't force him to play center. I know when Bargs is in his 7th year he's gonna surpass bosh.

Last edited by nathanapes; 12-04-2009 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 12-04-2009, 11:52 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Can anyone tell me why there's so much hate for Bargs? He makes 10mill and gets 18/7 and will improve with the right coaching staff. One more thing Bargs is better as a pf, we can't force him to play center. I know when Bargs is in his 7th year he's gonna surpass bosh.
You're bragging about 18/7. Bosh was giving you that in his second year in the NBA when he was 20 years old and the focal point of the team. Give Bargnani the team where he is option No.1, where the is no double teams on Bosh, and you will see that he chokes big time. If Bargnani is having problems on the defensive guarding centers, what do you think is going to happen when he is guarding quicker power forwards. Bargnani in his 7th year will be 27 or 28 years old. Great, we have another 2-4 years before he declines due to age. Bargnani will never reach Bosh's level. Will we ever see Bargnani in the TOP5 in rebounding in our lifetime. NO!!! Will we ever see Bargnani be aggressive and get to the rim and lead the league in free throw attempts. NO!!!! Will Bargnani ever be in the 20-10 club for a season. NO!!!!!! Will Bargnani be recognized as one of the best players in the league and be selected to Four All-Stars & COUNTING, NO!!!! You are delusional, Bargnani will never surpass Bosh as a player.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
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You're bragging about 18/7. Bosh was giving you that in his second year in the NBA when he was 20 years old and the focal point of the team. Give Bargnani the team where he is option No.1, where the is no double teams on Bosh, and you will see that he chokes big time. If Bargnani is having problems on the defensive guarding centers, what do you think is going to happen when he is guarding quicker power forwards. Bargnani in his 7th year will be 27 or 28 years old. Great, we have another 2-4 years before he declines due to age. Bargnani will never reach Bosh's level. Will we ever see Bargnani in the TOP5 in rebounding in our lifetime. NO!!! Will we ever see Bargnani be aggressive and get to the rim and lead the league in free throw attempts. NO!!!! Will Bargnani ever be in the 20-10 club for a season. NO!!!!!! Will Bargnani be recognized as one of the best players in the league and be selected to Four All-Stars & COUNTING, NO!!!! You are delusional, Bargnani will never surpass Bosh as a player.
Bargnani is not in his seventh year, nor is he 27 or 28! Go look up your facts before you start making these grandiose statements. He was drafted in 2006, do your math. He's 24 years old, born in 1985. I'm not sure if he'll be better than Bosh and neither are you. It is all about opinion, and guess what? Opinion is never fact. But that's besides the point. Your information is incorrect.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:59 PM   #12 (permalink)
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You're bragging about 18/7. Bosh was giving you that in his second year in the NBA when he was 20 years old and the focal point of the team. Give Bargnani the team where he is option No.1, where the is no double teams on Bosh, and you will see that he chokes big time. If Bargnani is having problems on the defensive guarding centers, what do you think is going to happen when he is guarding quicker power forwards. Bargnani in his 7th year will be 27 or 28 years old. Great, we have another 2-4 years before he declines due to age. Bargnani will never reach Bosh's level. Will we ever see Bargnani in the TOP5 in rebounding in our lifetime. NO!!! Will we ever see Bargnani be aggressive and get to the rim and lead the league in free throw attempts. NO!!!! Will Bargnani ever be in the 20-10 club for a season. NO!!!!!! Will Bargnani be recognized as one of the best players in the league and be selected to Four All-Stars & COUNTING, NO!!!! You are delusional, Bargnani will never surpass Bosh as a player.
Bargnani has no problems guarding one on one. Infact, he more competent than Bosh in that regard IMO..He usually defends D12 quite well, and is capable of defending guards sufficiently when called upon. It's his help D, or lack there of that is the dilemma.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:06 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Bargnani is not in his seventh year, nor is he 27 or 28! Go look up your facts before you start making these grandiose statements. He was drafted in 2006, do your math. He's 24 years old, born in 1985. I'm not sure if he'll be better than Bosh and neither are you. It is all about opinion, and guess what? Opinion is never fact. But that's besides the point. Your information is incorrect.
You read carefully before making "grandiose" statements. I said Bargnani in his 7th year will be 27 or 28 years old. The post before that made by nathanapes said that "I know when Bargs is in his 7th year he's gonna surpass bosh." So knowing that this is Barganani's fourth year in the league and Bargnani being 24 now, he will be 27 or 28 (7th year in the league) when he will supposedly surpass Bosh. I did look up my facts and did my math.You just have to read more properly!!!
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Can anyone tell me why there's so much hate for Bargs?


I know when Bargs is in his 7th year he's gonna surpass bosh.
Answered your own question there.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:13 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Historically bad defense is on the Coach. Even really BAD teams play better defense with worse players than the Raptors.

Blame the players if you feel Triano has done a great job at teaching and communicating a competent defensive scheme and motivating players to execute it. It's tough to argue the Coach has accomplished this.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:24 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I'm not sure if he'll be better than Bosh and neither are you. It is all about opinion, and guess what? Opinion is never fact. But that's besides the point. Your information is incorrect.
You can't predict the future. However you can best formulate your opinion/decision by using facts. What I have stated are the facts on the accomplishments about Bosh and Andrea Bargnani. Here is another fact, Bosh (25) is one year older than Bargnani (24). With all the Bargnani lovers, you think Andrea will jump that gap of being a better player than Bosh knowing that they are almost the same age and there is a big gap on the production and accomplishement of both players.
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Old 12-04-2009, 04:14 PM   #17 (permalink)
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The funny thing is --- we're so bad that, in a sense, it should be relatively easy for us to improve defensively, and yet we continue to play awfully - arguably worse and worse every game.

Case in point:

I've watched most of the Raptor games this year, but only a bit of the Atlanta game. But in that game, I witnessed the same shit that should honestly be easy to correct with the coaches getting in people's faces:

-Hedo should never leave anyone open unless he's going to be double teaming a monster player (ie. Dwight Howard) HARD in the post. Hedo likes to float 5-10 feet away from his man (who's often on the 3 point line) to grab defensive rebounds and start the fast break. This doesn't work - Hedo is quickly passing Bargnani as our worst defensive player.

-Bargnani, as a post player, should rotate QUICKLY and fully to the open man in the paint. If there's someone open near the bucket, don't let them get an uncontested layup, switch and make them shoot over a 7 footer or pass it.

-Everyone else on the team should STOP SWITCHING SO MUCH! We need to start fighting over screens, grabbing jerseys (Ray Allen style) and doing anything we can to keep up with our man.

--------

Jay needs to put his foot down and say look, our defense is atrocious and we have no pride whatsoever. Here's the new plan: you stick to your man like glue on D or you sit. We have enough depth to bench Hedo, Jose Bargnani and even Bosh as long as it takes for them to show effort on D.

No more floating on D, no more sagging off guys or you get benched!

Last edited by BballWatcher; 12-04-2009 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:27 AM   #18 (permalink)
wondering why he gets so much hate???? Freedom of speech right???

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You're bragging about 18/7. Bosh was giving you that in his second year in the NBA when he was 20 years old and the focal point of the team. Give Bargnani the team where he is option No.1, where the is no double teams on Bosh, and you will see that he chokes big time. If Bargnani is having problems on the defensive guarding centers, what do you think is going to happen when he is guarding quicker power forwards. Bargnani in his 7th year will be 27 or 28 years old. Great, we have another 2-4 years before he declines due to age. Bargnani will never reach Bosh's level. Will we ever see Bargnani in the TOP5 in rebounding in our lifetime. NO!!! Will we ever see Bargnani be aggressive and get to the rim and lead the league in free throw attempts. NO!!!! Will Bargnani ever be in the 20-10 club for a season. NO!!!!!! Will Bargnani be recognized as one of the best players in the league and be selected to Four All-Stars & COUNTING, NO!!!! You are delusional, Bargnani will never surpass Bosh as a player.
Remember your words.
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:33 AM   #19 (permalink)
wondering why he gets so much hate???? Freedom of speech right???

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Bargnani has no problems guarding one on one. Infact, he more competent than Bosh in that regard IMO..He usually defends D12 quite well, and is capable of defending guards sufficiently when called upon. It's his help D, or lack there of that is the dilemma.
Exactly, he just needs to learn how to rotate. Offensively, I think he can score for anywhere. CAn anyone tell me when he's failed in the post. He usually doesn't use it against bigger guys because he hasn't learned any of the footwork. Why do poeple think Kobe great in the post he learned from the best. Who is Bargs learning from,,, don't say Bosh, because Bargs has learned how to use Bosh's post up game, he just doesn't try to initiate contact like Bosh does. Bargs just needs to work on his intensity and his rotation D and he has a higher reina value than Bosh. ('riena' value:a stat that compares your game to your salary)
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