Raptors Cap/Tax Status - Page 3
Old 06-29-2012, 03:05 PM   #41 (permalink)
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hey im new to this stuff, why would bayless be a 7 mil hit? and how will the nash contract work out in relation to all this? can we spend up to 70 million? etc...
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:22 PM   #42 (permalink)
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hey im new to this stuff, why would bayless be a 7 mil hit? and how will the nash contract work out in relation to all this? can we spend up to 70 million? etc...
Basically, if our salary commitments are under the cap, we can only spend our cap space plus minimum contracts. However, we can also re-sign our own free agents regardless of how much cap space we have.

To prevent teams from using their cap space on a free agent like Nash and then turning around and signing their own free agents (because you don't need cap space for that), there is a rule that says if you want to be able to re-sign those free agents, they take up a certain amount of your cap even before they are signed. This amount is called a "cap hold."

In the case of players coming off their rookie contracts, the cap hold is defined as 250% of their previous year's salary - which is where that 7 million number comes from for Bayless. So until we sign him (or renounce his rights, in which case we need cap space to sign him) our cap space is taken up by that big fat cap hold.

The Nash contract will be around 10 million a season in all likelihood. As such, we will need 10 million in cap space to be able to sign him, as he is the Phoenix Suns' free agent, and not ours. As you can see in my breakdown above, we have only about 3 million because of Bayless' cap hold taking up all that space. To sign Nash, we will have to either let Bayless walk to another team, or clear some cap space (which is what the "amnesty" provision does - wipes one player off the team's books).

As for how much we can spend, teams can spend any amount they like. However, there are rules about when you can sign players. If you are under the cap, you have to use your cap space to sign free agents. If you are over the cap, you have to use exceptions (such as the Mid Level Exception, which allows a capped-out team to sign a player for 5 million a year; or such as the Bird Exception - which is the exception that allows a team to re-sign their own free agents as I discussed above) to sign players. As such, there is pretty much no way the Raptors can get up to 70 million this year, as they will be under the cap to start the offseason. They will likely end up right around the cap level (58 million) give or take 5 million.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:48 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Default 2012-13 Salaries

Another update with QO's.

Jose Calderon $10,561,982
Andrea Bargnani $10,000,000
Jerryd Bayless: $7,605,700 cap hold ($4,001,917 QO)
Amir Johnson $6,050,000
Linas Kleiza $4,600,000
DeMar DeRozan $3,344,250
Jonas Valanciunas: $2,812,200
James Johnson $2,812,006
Ed Davis $2,207,040
Terrence Ross $2,136,100
Gary Forbes $1,500,000
Sonny Weems $1,059,389 cap hold/QO
Roster slot cap hold (slot 13): $490,180

Total without Bayless: $48,063,327 - 9.9M cap space
Total with Bayless: $55,178,847 - 2.8M cap space

Salary Cap: $58 million
Tax Threshold: $70 million

- Jonas Valanciunas: last year's 5th slot rookie salary
- Note that the cap hold for rookies is their rookie scale salary, but rookies are typically signed to 120% of their rookie scale - as such, it would be best if they are signed after the other free agents. They will likely be "unofficially" signed early, then actually sign the papers later in July.
- Alabi is an UFA free agent, so no cap hold necessary. Technically they could keep his rights, but he'll be signed for the minimum so no need.
- Sonny Weems cap hold is his QO.

Amnesty candidates and resultant cap space (with/without Bayless cap hold):
Jose: 20.5M / 13.4M
Amir: 16.0M / 8.9M
Kleiza: 14.5M / 7.4M

Also note how expensive Bayless' cap hold is. If the team plans to re-sign him to a MLE level or somewhat lower contract, that should be their first move, to free up a couple million dollars in cap space. So you can add the difference between 7.6M and whatever he signs for to all above "with Bayless" numbers if they are smart. Assuming 5 million starting, that's an additional 2.6 million in cap space. Nothing to sneeze at.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:57 PM   #44 (permalink)
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This is amazing Dan H, thank you!
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:32 PM   #45 (permalink)
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If we amnesty Jose Calderon does he gets his $10,561,982 without playing the 2012-2013 for the Raptors ? If he gets the 10,561,982 and signs with another team this season does he get his 10 mil plus and whatever he signs for with his new team ???
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:38 PM   #46 (permalink)
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If we amnesty Jose Calderon does he gets his $10,561,982 without playing the 2012-2013 for the Raptors ? If he gets the 10,561,982 and signs with another team this season does he get his 10 mil plus and whatever he signs for with his new team ???
Yes, he gets his full salary. In other words, if he signs with another team say for 6Mil/yr he would make 16.5Mil next season if you include the amnesty money.
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:53 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I believe if he signed for another team at $6M/yr, he would still make his $10.5M, but his new club would pay $6M and Toronto would pay the balance ($4.5M).
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:56 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I believe if he signed for another team at $6M/yr, he would still make his $10.5M, but his new club would pay $6M and Toronto would pay the balance ($4.5M).
I believe that's how it works too
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Old 06-30-2012, 02:46 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Julian Wright: $7,145,143 (point of reference - JW's QO amount is $3,952,653)
Rasho Nesterovic: $2,388,000
Joey Dorsey: $884,389 (QO - $884,293 if no QO offered)
Pape Sow: $884,389
Patrick O'Bryant: $884,389
Who?
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Old 06-30-2012, 03:26 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I believe if he signed for another team at $6M/yr, he would still make his $10.5M, but his new club would pay $6M and Toronto would pay the balance ($4.5M).
Nope. This is how typical waivers work. However, with the amnesty, there is a bidding process. Teams can make blind bids on an amnestied player to take on a fraction or the entirety of their remaining contract - all years must be taken up, but the amount paid is determined by the bid. If Jose is amnestied, all his salary comes off the cap immediately. If he is picked up in bidding for 5 million, his new team pays him 5 million (with a 5 million cap hit) for the remainder of his contract ( in Jose's case, just this year) and the Raptors pay him the rest of the 10.5 million he is owed (5.5 million).

However, if he clears the bidding with no team taking him, the Raptors pay his full salary no matter what. He then can sign with a new team as a free agent and bring in two different paychecks - one from the Raptors for the full 10.5 million, and one from his new team for whatever he signs for.

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Old 06-30-2012, 03:44 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Who?
Highlighting this because everyone's jumping on the "Amnesty JC" thing, which is likely what BC was implying, but just renouncing those cap holds opens up a lot of space I would assume.

Dan may be able to correct me if I'm wrong here.
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Old 06-30-2012, 04:01 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Highlighting this because everyone's jumping on the "Amnesty JC" thing, which is likely what BC was implying, but just renouncing those cap holds opens up a lot of space I would assume.

Dan may be able to correct me if I'm wrong here.
Yeah it would - which is why I haven't included them in my cap calcs - I've assumed they will be renounced if the team plans on using cap space.
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:29 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Basically, if our salary commitments are under the cap, we can only spend our cap space plus minimum contracts. However, we can also re-sign our own free agents regardless of how much cap space we have.

To prevent teams from using their cap space on a free agent like Nash and then turning around and signing their own free agents (because you don't need cap space for that), there is a rule that says if you want to be able to re-sign those free agents, they take up a certain amount of your cap even before they are signed. This amount is called a "cap hold."

In the case of players coming off their rookie contracts, the cap hold is defined as 250% of their previous year's salary - which is where that 7 million number comes from for Bayless. So until we sign him (or renounce his rights, in which case we need cap space to sign him) our cap space is taken up by that big fat cap hold.

The Nash contract will be around 10 million a season in all likelihood. As such, we will need 10 million in cap space to be able to sign him, as he is the Phoenix Suns' free agent, and not ours. As you can see in my breakdown above, we have only about 3 million because of Bayless' cap hold taking up all that space. To sign Nash, we will have to either let Bayless walk to another team, or clear some cap space (which is what the "amnesty" provision does - wipes one player off the team's books).

As for how much we can spend, teams can spend any amount they like. However, there are rules about when you can sign players. If you are under the cap, you have to use your cap space to sign free agents. If you are over the cap, you have to use exceptions (such as the Mid Level Exception, which allows a capped-out team to sign a player for 5 million a year; or such as the Bird Exception - which is the exception that allows a team to re-sign their own free agents as I discussed above) to sign players. As such, there is pretty much no way the Raptors can get up to 70 million this year, as they will be under the cap to start the offseason. They will likely end up right around the cap level (58 million) give or take 5 million.

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer dude!
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:52 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Julian Wright: $7,145,143 (point of reference - JW's QO amount is $3,952,653)
wow...
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Old 07-01-2012, 07:49 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Total without Bayless: $48,063,327 - 9.9M cap space
Total with Bayless: $55,178,847 - 2.8M cap space
question DanH
how it's possible if right now there is only less than 3M in capspace that we can offer 12M to Nash ?
even if we have 9.9M

what are the scenarii to sign nash to a 12M ?
a S&T seems the more likely to do that for us, no?

if so can we trade caldy to them for nash ?

Last edited by Bankiz; 07-01-2012 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:33 PM   #56 (permalink)
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question DanH
how it's possible if right now there is only less than 3M in capspace that we can offer 12M to Nash ?
even if we have 9.9M

what are the scenarii to sign nash to a 12M ?
a S&T seems the more likely to do that for us, no?

if so can we trade caldy to them for nash ?
Well, we have 11 days to clear that cap space - as such, Calderon will either be amnestied or moved when the signing becomes official. Very unlikely a sign and trade with PHX happens.
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Old 07-01-2012, 11:13 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Total without Bayless: $48,063,327 - 9.9M cap space
Total with Bayless: $55,178,847 - 2.8M cap space
to be clear you don't take the tpe in ?

if not, we still have 7.6M more in capsapce if BC decide to renonce, is that right ?

because in your post i don't see mention of barbosa's tpe.
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Old 07-02-2012, 12:27 AM   #58 (permalink)
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to be clear you don't take the tpe in ?

if not, we still have 7.6M more in capsapce if BC decide to renonce, is that right ?

because in your post i don't see mention of barbosa's tpe.
Anytime you have cap space, you cannot have a TPE - it is not just a cap hold - it cannot, by definition, exist at the same time as cap space.

If we have the TPE, we keep all our cap holds and only have the MLE to sign free agents. As such, the assumption that the TPE is renounced is inherent in any cap space discussion.
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Old 07-02-2012, 09:35 AM   #59 (permalink)
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thanks, but to me it's not very clear.

so if we spend all our capspace, do we still have our tpe after that or not ?
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:00 AM   #60 (permalink)
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thanks, but to me it's not very clear.

so if we spend all our capspace, do we still have our tpe after that or not ?
No. To even have any cap space, even a dollar of cap space, the TPE must be renounced.

Even if a team had no cap holds except for a 10 million dollar TPE, and had 30 million in cap space, they could not use any cap space unless they renounced the TPE. A TPE and cap space cannot exist at the same time.

So if we use cap space to sign free agents, by definition we would have renounced the TPE.
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