Raptors Cap/Tax Status - Page 12
Old 06-30-2013, 05:26 PM   #221 (permalink)
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are you sure, i think the MLE is only for team between over cap, and under tax, no ?
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:30 PM   #222 (permalink)
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are you sure, i think the MLE is only for team between over cap, and under tax, no ?
no, from what I know you can go over the cap by using the MLE. But if you're already over the cap you can't use it....i'll check...
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:34 PM   #223 (permalink)
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In the collective bargaining agreement that went into effect on December 9, 2011, the mid level exception will be a lot more limited.
Teams under the luxury tax threshold can offer four-year contracts starting at $5 million, with three percent annual increases. Tax-payers are limited to three-year offers starting at $3 million. The base salaries will increase by three percent every year starting in 2013-14.

Teams that go under the cap at any point cannot use the mid level exception, but can sign players using the "Space Exception" introduced in the 2011 CBA.
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:42 PM   #224 (permalink)
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no, from what I know you can go over the cap by using the MLE. But if you're already over the cap you can't use it....i'll check...
You're using the term "cap" when you should be talking about tax threshold. It's confusing things. You can use the full $5 mill MLE if you start under the TAX threshold when you sign. That's why Dan has listed the "Apron" figure. Because once a team uses the full Non-taxpayer MLE and ends up over the tax by using it, they are confined to remaining under the Apron for the rest of the year.

You have cap, tax threshold, and Apron. 3 different levels with different implications.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 06-30-2013 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:43 PM   #225 (permalink)
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You're using the term "cap" when you should be talking about tax threshold. It's confusing things.
yeah, I thought it was the cap not the tax. I was wrong
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:46 PM   #226 (permalink)
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yeah, I thought it was the cap not the tax. I was wrong
no biggie, obviously. It's just people will get confused if you use the wrong term, especially Bankiz who doesn't speak english as a first language and is possibly even using Google translate to communicate with us.
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:53 PM   #227 (permalink)
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no biggie, obviously. It's just people will get confused if you use the wrong term, especially Bankiz who doesn't speak english as a first language and is possibly even using Google translate to communicate with us.
sorry, but i don't use google translate or other stuff like it.
but no biggie. i learn every day, some new words. lol !

oh, what's APRON ?
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:56 PM   #228 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
You're using the term "cap" when you should be talking about tax threshold. It's confusing things. You can use the full $5 mill MLE if you start under the TAX threshold when you sign. That's why Dan has listed the "Apron" figure. Because once a team uses the full Non-taxpayer MLE and ends up over the tax by using it, they are confined to remaining under the Apron for the rest of the year.

You have cap, tax threshold, and Apron. 3 different levels with different implications.
I thought they changed the rule that even if you're under luxury, you can't sign for full MLE if you go over the luxury threshold with the new contract? The old CBA would allow you to do that. May have been just a proposal though, not sure if it made it in the final agreement.
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Old 06-30-2013, 06:02 PM   #229 (permalink)
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I thought they changed the rule that even if you're under luxury, you can't sign for full MLE if you go over the luxury threshold with the new contract? The old CBA would allow you to do that. May have been just a proposal though, not sure if it made it in the final agreement.
that rule exists but it's "tax apron" rather than tax threshold. Tax apron is tax + 4 mil.

In other words, you can't go 4 mil (or more) over tax if you are using non-taxpayer midlevel.
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Old 06-30-2013, 06:10 PM   #230 (permalink)
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thanks that give much to think, and clearify many things for me.
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Old 06-30-2013, 06:18 PM   #231 (permalink)
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I thought they changed the rule that even if you're under luxury, you can't sign for full MLE if you go over the luxury threshold with the new contract? The old CBA would allow you to do that. May have been just a proposal though, not sure if it made it in the final agreement.
You thought wrong.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:30 PM   #232 (permalink)
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How much money did the raps save overall (including all years and salaries) with this deal?
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:32 PM   #233 (permalink)
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How much money did the raps save overall (including all years and salaries) with this deal?
Working on it now. I have to figure out how exactly they will do it now that it has to wait for July 10th.
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:36 PM   #234 (permalink)
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And just to clarify all the questions above.

Any team under the cap can use their cap space and then the ~2.5M room exception.

Any team over the cap can use the full 5M MLE, so long as they do not go above the tax apron (tax + 4M, so about 75M this year) at any point in the year.

Any team that does or will go over the tax apron during the year is limited to the 3M tax payer MLE.
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:42 PM   #235 (permalink)
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You thought wrong.
only partially, there are still some limitations according to Dan's post - basically you can't use the MLE to go over luxury + 4M, so you need to be at least 2 million under the limit in order to get full MLE.
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:47 PM   #236 (permalink)
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only partially, there are still some limitations according to Dan's post - basically you can't use the MLE to go over luxury + 4M, so you need to be at least 2 million under the limit in order to get full MLE.
Yes, dude, and I'd already explained that when you questioned what I was saying. The way you put it was wrong, if you were saying the way I phrased it was wrong. Because the way I phrased it is how it works.

This is what I said. Whatever.

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Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
You're using the term "cap" when you should be talking about tax threshold. It's confusing things. You can use the full $5 mill MLE if you start under the TAX threshold when you sign. That's why Dan has listed the "Apron" figure. Because once a team uses the full Non-taxpayer MLE and ends up over the tax by using it, they are confined to remaining under the Apron for the rest of the year.

You have cap, tax threshold, and Apron. 3 different levels with different implications.
The only thing I didn't mention was the specific point where the Apron kicks in. + 4 mill

Jesus, Moremilk.
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:51 PM   #237 (permalink)
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Default Bargnani trade

The original trade was (and I'll do this rough and use more detail on the trade that will actually happen):

Bargnani (10.5 M with trade kicker) for Novak (4.1 M) and Camby (4.6 M) plus picks.

4.6 + 4.1 = 8.7 M

NYK are above the tax, so they can only absorb 125% + 100,000 of what they send out.

8.7 M * 1.25 = 10.875 M + 100,000 = 11 M

So the deal works.

But it didn't get done in time, so I'll dig into what they have to do to make it work in my next post.

Last edited by DanH; 06-30-2013 at 11:48 PM. Reason: To fix for trade kicker.
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:59 PM   #238 (permalink)
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Default Bargnani trade v2.0

So. Now using 2013-14 salaries, since they didn't get it done in time.

Bargs $11,287,500 (with trade kicker) for Marcus Camby $4,383,773 and Steve Novak $3,750,000

Total outgoing for NYK: $8,133,773 -> $10,267,216 with 125% rule.

So, the Knicks can not absorb Bargnani using those two players, due to Camby and Novak taking paycuts this year, and Bargnani getting a raise.

Throw in a minimum vet sign and trade, and it works. Let's say Prigioni, since apparently Kenyon Martin doesn't want a free paycheck.

Bargs $11,287,500 for Marcus Camby $4,383,773 and Steve Novak $3,750,000 and Prigioni $884,293

Total outgoing for NYK: $9,018,066 -> $11,372,583 with 125% rule.

Tada - it works. The Raps also receive a first round pick in 2016, and second round picks in 2014 and 2016.

Last edited by DanH; 06-30-2013 at 11:48 PM. Reason: To fix for trade kicker.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:03 PM   #239 (permalink)
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Default Nifty trick

Now, one complication in adding that vet minimum is that it is likely a handshake deal where the player is waived as soon as he arrives. But a sign and trade must be for at least 3 years. As such it would seem like the Raps would be stuck with 3 years of an additional minimum salary cap hit.

But there is a loophole - only the first year of a S and T has to be fully guaranteed - so the handshake deal can be a three year contract for the minimum, with the second and third years fully unguaranteed. The player is waived immediately, collects a paycheck from the Raps for the year, and only has a cap hit for this year.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:10 PM   #240 (permalink)
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Now, one complication in adding that vet minimum is that it is likely a handshake deal where the player is waived as soon as he arrives. But a sign and trade must be for at least 3 years. As such it would seem like the Raps would be stuck with 3 years of an additional minimum salary cap hit.

But there is a loophole - only the first year of a S and T has to be fully guaranteed - so the handshake deal can be a three year contract for the minimum, with the second and third years fully unguaranteed. The player is waived immediately, collects a paycheck from the Raps for the year, and only has a cap hit for this year.
Yeah, good idea posting this. I believe this is what Brooklyn and Boston are doing with Bogans, in order to make their deal work.

I'll just be interested to see who the Knicks throw in. Martin looked good last year. I could see him getting offers from other playoff teams that he might want to join. Maybe Prigioni agrees, I guess.
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