Raptors aren’t tanking, they’re on a ‘strategic retreat’ - Page 2

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Old 12-11-2013, 10:27 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I don't think Ujiri is tanking.

a) Their was a clear lack of chemistry between Derozan and Gay

b) The team was frustrated, unhappy, and losing basketball games with Gay.

c) Our bench has been awful. Fields/Novak/Ross/Stone all at the time is attrocious and yet we've seen that regularly as of late. Novak at the four-spot is particularly disturbing. He's out-matched every game. Patterson/Salmons/Hayes/Vasquez are four guys who could all conceivably crack the rotation off the bench and at the very least, give Casey far more options.

d) He's freeing up cap space.

It was just a really good move. It doesn't make us worse, nor does it make us immediately better. But it does give the team a better chance to improve this year, and it also frees up cash for Ujiri to play with.

It was probably a good move for Sacramento as well.

Last edited by bjjs; 12-11-2013 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:34 AM   #22 (permalink)
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"Championship or bust" pretty much means endless tanking. But that does offer some interesting rebranding possibilities.
...what else are you playing for then?
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:47 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I don't think we are tanking, yet.
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:11 PM   #24 (permalink)
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We aren't "tanking." We are giving our young guys "room to develop"

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Old 12-11-2013, 02:22 PM   #25 (permalink)
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You'll know we're tanking when MU ships off a guy and you're like: "Really MU? We didn't need to trade him!". The Gay and Bargs trades were not that kind of deals. They had to go ASAP and the team got better as a result.
um, how exactly did we get better after the Bargnani trade? We sucked last season and we such just as bad the current season. And this season we've been healthy, unlike last year. And the schedule so far was lighter.

but even if that's true, how exactly can you judge how good we are after this last trade, since we haven't even played one game with the new players??
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:27 PM   #26 (permalink)
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um, how exactly did we get better after the Bargnani trade? We sucked last season and we such just as bad the current season. And this season we've been healthy, unlike last year. And the schedule so far was lighter.

but even if that's true, how exactly can you judge how good we are after this last trade, since we haven't even played one game with the new players??
Because we didn't have to give minutes to a listless, non-rebounding, injury prone,decining shooter.
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:30 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Because we didn't have to give minutes to a listless, non-rebounding, injury prone,decining shooter.
oh, ok. So we got better after we traded Bargnani because we traded bargnani. That makes sense - hey, you can argue anything with that approach. How about this. Lebron is the worst player in the world because everybody else is better than him ...
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:40 PM   #28 (permalink)
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oh, ok. So we got better after we traded Bargnani because we traded bargnani. That makes sense - hey, you can argue anything with that approach. How about this. Lebron is the worst player in the world because everybody else is better than him ...
Doh, in point of fact, we did get better because we traded him. And he's not here to gum up the works. Same reason we traded Gay. Like Ujiri said- chemistry wasn't working. Now, are you here to post ideas or be illogical.
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:50 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Doh, in point of fact, we did get better because we traded him. And he's not here to gum up the works. Same reason we traded Gay. Like Ujiri said- chemistry wasn't working. Now, are you here to post ideas or be illogical.
Do you have any statistical evidence we got better after trading Bargnani? I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm saying you've presented no evidence beside your opinion.
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:58 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Do you have any statistical evidence we got better after trading Bargnani? I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm saying you've presented no evidence beside your opinion.
I could look up the RPG were getting from the PF spot and shooting percentage we're getting from that spot to back up my argument if it's really necessary.
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:11 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I could look up the RPG were getting from the PF spot and shooting percentage we're getting from that spot to back up my argument if it's really necessary.
It's necessary ....
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:12 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I could look up the RPG were getting from the PF spot and shooting percentage we're getting from that spot to back up my argument if it's really necessary.
Rebounds and shooting percentage from one spot describes overall team success pretty poorly.

And instead of saying "I could," you should.
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:39 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Rebounds and shooting percentage from one spot describes overall team success pretty poorly.

And instead of saying "I could," you should.
I agree it describes overall team success pretty poorly, also the statistics for this year are smaller sample size compared to last year's full season statistics, even discounting the time that Bargnani missed due to injury, and the data base doesn't show Ed Davis' numbers, so my comparison is a little thinner, Amir/Tyler this year vs Amir/Andrea last year.

Amir/Tyler this year are 12.7 RPG and Amir/Andrea last year were 11.2 RPG

Last year Amir shot 55.4% and Andrea shot 39.9% and this year Amir is shooting 60.5% and Tyler is shooting 43.1%
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:49 PM   #34 (permalink)
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If you guys need a stat to see how this team is better off without Gay or Bargs you obviously haven't been watching any games.

Perhaps a different coach could've utilized Gay a little better but it's not likely Casey is leaving anytime soon so Gay had to go.

Last edited by ZanTheMan; 12-11-2013 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:59 PM   #35 (permalink)
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...what else are you playing for then?
You are playing to win a championship at some point. According to championship or bust you just keep tearing it down if you are going to fall short.

Do we not all hope to see Valanciunas improve a fair bit, sooner rather than later, and get more minutes? That could very well lead to wins. What do you do if it does?
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Old 12-11-2013, 04:30 PM   #36 (permalink)
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You are playing to win a championship at some point. According to championship or bust you just keep tearing it down if you are going to fall short.

Do we not all hope to see Valanciunas improve a fair bit, sooner rather than later, and get more minutes? That could very well lead to wins. What do you do if it does?
Valanciunas is young enough that even projected improvements won't lead him to be the type of player to win games by himself anytime soon. And you remove any semblance of good PG play, it won't really matter how well your bigs play.

As for championship or bust - it doesn't mean tearing it apart any year you don't think you can win a championship. It means ensuring that the core you are building around has the potential to play at that level, and tearing it apart if it is apparent that it does not (as I would say is the case with the current unit). Once you have a core in place that you feel can be the key to a championship-contending team, then you make other moves to reach that level.

The key is knowing when you have the right parts to start building around. I don't think any of the players on this team outside of Jonas and Amir are clearly made of the 'right stuff,' and based on the timing needed to improve the talent level of this team, Amir probably doesn't fit timing wise (although I wouldn't complain if he was kept). You may differ on that, and fair enough.
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:52 PM   #37 (permalink)
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We aren't "tanking." We are giving our young guys "room to develop"

Indeed. JV and TR need their minutes.
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:53 PM   #38 (permalink)
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oh, ok. So we got better after we traded Bargnani because we traded bargnani. That makes sense - hey, you can argue anything with that approach. How about this. Lebron is the worst player in the world because everybody else is better than him ...
Raps got better cuz they removed a liability off the team.
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:54 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Valanciunas is young enough that even projected improvements won't lead him to be the type of player to win games by himself anytime soon. And you remove any semblance of good PG play, it won't really matter how well your bigs play.

As for championship or bust - it doesn't mean tearing it apart any year you don't think you can win a championship. It means ensuring that the core you are building around has the potential to play at that level, and tearing it apart if it is apparent that it does not (as I would say is the case with the current unit). Once you have a core in place that you feel can be the key to a championship-contending team, then you make other moves to reach that level.

The key is knowing when you have the right parts to start building around. I don't think any of the players on this team outside of Jonas and Amir are clearly made of the 'right stuff,' and based on the timing needed to improve the talent level of this team, Amir probably doesn't fit timing wise (although I wouldn't complain if he was kept). You may differ on that, and fair enough.
Post of the day.
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Old 12-11-2013, 07:51 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I agree it describes overall team success pretty poorly, also the statistics for this year are smaller sample size compared to last year's full season statistics, even discounting the time that Bargnani missed due to injury, and the data base doesn't show Ed Davis' numbers, so my comparison is a little thinner, Amir/Tyler this year vs Amir/Andrea last year.

Amir/Tyler this year are 12.7 RPG and Amir/Andrea last year were 11.2 RPG

Last year Amir shot 55.4% and Andrea shot 39.9% and this year Amir is shooting 60.5% and Tyler is shooting 43.1%
I think a fair summary is that we sucked with bargnani, we sucked just as bad without him and we'll suck equally bad without gay. Chemistry was bad to be sure this season, but that wasn't our biggest problem, not by a long margin.

Ultimately, we lack talent and by trading gay for a bunch of fairly bad players from a team that was worse than us, we're not going to improve the talent level... There's not a whiff of all star on this team and you need 2-3 to compete with the top 10. What's worse, there's not even a glimpse of a potential all star in the near future, maybe JV in 2-3 seasons.
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