Raptors Among Teams Calling Suns About Steve Nash before Draft - Page 3

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Old 06-23-2011, 09:23 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
For what it's worth, that comment alone makes you a bigger man than most on this board. I've seen people post absolutely ridiculous nonesense that is completely factually incorrect, and, after it is brought to their attention, rather than admit they were wrong, they just move on to throwing out another point while desperately holding on to the same position.
much appreciated.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:24 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Carp- your overall point was well made mate. poor defenders can be changed by establishing a culture in the team. Likewise a good defender moving to new york and palying under d'antoni would still be a decent defender but i bet you'd see that side of his game suffer.

I'm new to these boards, really liking it so far but a few people seem to edge more towards (pointless) argument rather than debate.
glad my point didn't go overlooked. Thanks.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:45 AM   #43 (permalink)
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i still don't agree with your point. a change of culture needs to come with a change of personnel. i've never seen a team of noteworthy poor defenders improve with a new coach at the helm.

regarding casey, he did wonders with dallas getting them to work in a strong system. i also think that people are giving both him too much credit and cuban not enough for changing the culture of that team. from top to bottom, they have strong defenders at every position. i think people are stuck on identifying that team with the soft mavericks of the past.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:55 AM   #44 (permalink)
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i still don't agree with your point. a change of culture needs to come with a change of personnel. i've never seen a team of noteworthy poor defenders improve with a new coach at the helm.

regarding casey, he did wonders with dallas getting them to work in a strong system. i also think that people are giving both him too much credit and cuban not enough for changing the culture of that team. from top to bottom, they have strong defenders at every position. i think people are stuck on identifying that team with the soft mavericks of the past.
we don't have to agree.... for example... I don't think Dallas has strong defenders at every position but they do have key players that are very good. I do think Casey may be getting too much credit though, as Chandler has been a huge boost to them defensively too. The mavs did however play very physical and that is something the Raps have not done since the days of Oakley, Davis and Willis.

The difference here is that with how young our team is, we have guys that haven't learned to defend yet and others that still need to grow into their bodies to be more effective overall. This team is young.... Casey might be able to groom them.

Last edited by carp; 06-23-2011 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:56 AM   #45 (permalink)
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After the playoffs, Kidd deserves to be called the best defender in the league.

Man spent a ton of time guarding Kobe, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Lebron and Wade throughout the playoffs.

He was very effective too. 38 years old. Jesus...

- And regarding Nash, the guy is good for any sports franchise. Not only does him being there accelerate players development curves, but the guys brings positive energy. The infectious kind.

If we can swing a package deal that can net us kid Canada without sacrificing our cap position or high picks, I'm all game.
This is exactly why I'd loooove to have him on the team.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:15 AM   #46 (permalink)
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This is exactly why I'd loooove to have him on the team.
Yup agreed.
Ignoring his skills completely I would want him here.

The problem is still, he's 37/38 and they would milk us dry for him.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:35 AM   #47 (permalink)
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I seriously doubt PHO management would be cold enough to send Nash to a rebuilding team after all he has done for them. At his age, he wants one more shot with a playoff team and I think he'd be extremely pissed if he was traded to TOR instead of say the Knicks.
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Old 06-23-2011, 11:00 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Nash needs to goto a contender like the Lakers, not to rebuilding teams. Its time for him to get a championship.
i somewhat share the same sentiment. he's not getting any younger and as a fellow Canadian, i would like for him to obtain at least one championship in his repertoire of his career.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:08 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Championships aren't guaranteed on any team as proven this year with Miami.

You look at the confidence that big men play with offensively when they're running alongside Nash. He makes the game easy for them and he puts complete trust in them to take shots.

What we saw from Bargnani offensively in that game against the Heat last year where he played with passion lighting up Bosh, we will see that skill on display, almost nightly with Nash feeding him the ball.

Nash/Bargs will be lights out offensivley. The young gunz are pretty good on both ends of the court, and they have confidence competing against all the young "up and coming" teams in the NBA. When you look at how they performed against teams like OKC, I think we're alot closer than people think in terms of competing in the playoffs. Nash brings us to that level immediately.


From what I've read, the team doesn't plan on coddling Bargnani this year and it's going to be sink or swim, if Casey can show Bargnani how to become reliable on defense and perhaps even use his athleticism to make some plays on that end, we would have one hell of a squad with Nash at the point.

Last edited by bjjs; 06-23-2011 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:13 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jackson Filth View Post
i still don't agree with your point. a change of culture needs to come with a change of personnel. i've never seen a team of noteworthy poor defenders improve with a new coach at the helm.

regarding casey, he did wonders with dallas getting them to work in a strong system. i also think that people are giving both him too much credit and cuban not enough for changing the culture of that team. from top to bottom, they have strong defenders at every position. i think people are stuck on identifying that team with the soft mavericks of the past.
Um, personally, I think people are just completely missing the point in general, including you, to a degree.

Hello, people, the Mavs were not even a top 5 defensive team this year with Casey. But you know what? They were a top 5 defensive team under Avery Johnson before Casey ever arrived and before Kidd, Marion, or Chandler was on the team.

If the culture was changed, and I agree it was, it was changed to a culture of experience that can perform late in games and overcome adversity. Overall, Avery Johnson's Mavs were very good defensively, no matter how you measure it. At one point, Johnson's Mavs were top 5 in defensive rating (per 100 possesions) as well as standard opponents PPG.

I know people don't always like stats, but you'd be missing the point if you ignore them. No matter what measure you take, Johnson's pre-Casey Mavs could stop the fucking basketball. And really, really well.

The notion that the Mavs didn't play defense in the past is a total myth, at least during the post-Nash and Finley era. By 2006, the Mavs were improving defensively.

2011 Mavs were clutch. That's what distinguished them from the Avery Johnson era, not defense.

Edit - to be clear, both teams played defense - Johnson and post-Johnson Mavs. The point is that they didn't suddenly get better at defense. They were always playing it.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 06-23-2011 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:18 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Casey's defense won a championship and they went through the four best individual offensive players in the NBA to win it.

To say he didn't have the tools on the squad isn't accurate either though. Chandler, Marion, Kidd are all elite defenders. Terry, Dirk, proved to be quite reliable and they played very solid man and off-ball defense throughout the playoffs, but these two stepping it up would have more to do with their own maturity and the team policing itself then it would one defensive coach.

And as a defensive coordinator, there hasn't been a coach yet who has had the success Casey has had at implementing a zone on a game to game basis and being succesful at it, that's a notable achievement.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:30 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Casey's defense won a championship and they went through the four best individual offensive players in the NBA to win it.
That's true. And Avery Johnson also took the Mavs to the finals and put them in a position to win against four of the best individual offensive players in 2006.

Both Mavs teams were solid on defense. Johnson's Mavs and 2011 Mavs, so if your post is responding to me, you're missing why I responded to Jackson. My point is that Casey did not make the 2011 Mavs better defensively than they were in the past. Both teams could play D, and, by several measures, Johnson's teams were actually better on defense.

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To say he didn't have the tools on the squad isn't accurate either though. Chandler, Marion, Kidd are all elite defenders.
Sure. And the old Mavs had tools, as well. They were a top 5 defensive team. If your post is not a response to me, then you can just ignore this.

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Terry, Dirk, proved to be quite reliable and they played very solid man and off-ball defense throughout the playoffs, but these two stepping it up would have more to do with their own maturity and the team policing itself then it would one defensive coach.
Yup. But I think being on the court with other vets who'd been deep in the playoffs on numerous occassions helps.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:53 PM   #53 (permalink)
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The closest we can get to proving who is a better defensive squad might be manually entering rosters of both teams into NBA Live 2008 (using 2008 is only fair) and then playing a 99 game series.

Serious Haverchuck, you're a smart funny guy but you get so hung up on 'proof' and 'being right' all the time.

My response was to the thread as a whole. The fact is that Casey and along with every other coach and player on the roster is responsible for their offense and defense. You can't give the credit to the coaches and the defensive system for "turning soft defenders into tough defenders". Systems don't do that, the players and the team itself is responsible for that. Defensive systems don't turn pussies into studs.

Defense goes hand in hand with offense in basketball. Their is no complete separation of the two like their is in football. This being known as fact, from a purely visual perspective on what I've seen which is as good a measure as any flawed statistic which can't completely separate defense from the game as a whole, the Mavs were the best they've ever been defensively. Obviously just my opinion.

Last edited by bjjs; 06-23-2011 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:15 PM   #54 (permalink)
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you get so hung up on 'proof' and 'being right' all the time.
I'm sorry you feel that way, although I could easily provide you with examples of me admitting I was wrong.

You obviously disagree, but I think providing some perspective on how well the Mavs played defense in the past was a necessary contribution to the discussion. I don't think there was a huge culture change on the defensive end.

Are they marginally better? Maybe they are. I wouldn't have a big issue with that statement. But to suggest there was a defensive culture change is a bit extreme, given that Johnson's pre-Casey Mavs were a top 5 defensive team. I think the culture changed a bit. Toughness and experience were a bigger part of the change, in my opinion.

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Defense goes hand in hand with offense in basketball.
I agree. For example, during the finals, the Mavs defense was at its best when they protected the ball and avoided turnovers. That minimized Miami's excellent transition game.

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This being known as fact, from a purely visual perspective on what I've seen which is as good a measure as any flawed statistic which can't completely separate defense from the game as a whole, the Mavs were the best they've ever been defensively. Obviously just my opinion.
Fair enough. I agree that the visual perspective matters. That's how you catch things like the role of Miami's transition game.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:25 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Um, personally, I think people are just completely missing the point in general, including you, to a degree.

Hello, people, the Mavs were not even a top 5 defensive team this year with Casey. But you know what? They were a top 5 defensive team under Avery Johnson before Casey ever arrived and before Kidd, Marion, or Chandler was on the team.

If the culture was changed, and I agree it was, it was changed to a culture of experience that can perform late in games and overcome adversity. Overall, Avery Johnson's Mavs were very good defensively, no matter how you measure it. At one point, Johnson's Mavs were top 5 in defensive rating (per 100 possesions) as well as standard opponents PPG.

I know people don't always like stats, but you'd be missing the point if you ignore them. No matter what measure you take, Johnson's pre-Casey Mavs could stop the fucking basketball. And really, really well.

The notion that the Mavs didn't play defense in the past is a total myth, at least during the post-Nash and Finley era. By 2006, the Mavs were improving defensively.

2011 Mavs were clutch. That's what distinguished them from the Avery Johnson era, not defense.

Edit - to be clear, both teams played defense - Johnson and post-Johnson Mavs. The point is that they didn't suddenly get better at defense. They were always playing it.
i'm not clear on what point i'm missing.

is it the comparison of the avery johnson mavs playing defence and the rick carlisle mavs playing defence? i don't see how they really relate to one another. the johnson's mavs still carried the stigma of being a soft team.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:36 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Any winning culture in the NBA is a defensive culture, and I agree that with the Mavs those wheels started turning back just before the hiring of Johnson.

I think everybody is agreeing here but managing to argue nonetheless
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:39 PM   #57 (permalink)
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i'm not clear on what point i'm missing.
Here is your old post. You can tell me if I'm misinterpreting you.

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Originally Posted by Jackson Filth View Post
regarding casey, he did wonders with dallas getting them to work in a strong system. i also think that people are giving both him too much credit and cuban not enough for changing the culture of that team. from top to bottom, they have strong defenders at every position. i think people are stuck on identifying that team with the soft mavericks of the past.
I think you're right that they were softer in the past, especially if you mean mentally. But in one sentence you say they have strong defenders at every position. And you mentioned the defenders after talking about changing the culture of the team. And the prior discussion had focussed on defense.

So I said I thought you were missing the point "to a degree", because it seemed to me that you were suggesting that this culture change brought better defense as well as toughness.

I think the better defense point is debatable, and that's why I said "personally". I'm not convinced this Mavs team was necessarily a better defensive squad. They were a better basketball team.

Sorry if that's not the way your post was meant to be interpreted.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:41 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
Here is your old post. You can tell me if I'm misinterpreting you.



I think you're right that they were softer in the past, especially if you mean mentally. But in one sentence you say they have strong defenders at every position. And you mentioned the defenders after talking about changing the culture of the team. And the prior discussion had focussed on defense.

So I said I thought you were missing the point "to a degree", because it seemed to me that you were suggesting that this culture change brought better defense as well as toughness.

I think the better defense point is debatable, and that's why I said "personally". I'm not convinced this Mavs team was necessarily a better defensive squad. They were a better basketball team.

Sorry if that's not the way your post was meant to be interpreted.
lol when i read your posts, it reminds me of your profile pick. no offense.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:42 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Come on guys.

The Mavs one for one simple reasons. Great players. Dirk is the MVP or in the top three in the NBA, and they have a team full of guys that have been there and lost and learned from those losses and knew hat to do. Think Miami comes back weaker from the experience??

The Mavs built a team over YEARS, it's how you do it if you ask me. Its the true Championship team.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:45 PM   #60 (permalink)
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lol when i read your posts, it reminds me of your profile pick. no offense.
Why would I take offense? I want you to do that!

I'm juxtaposing a huge Dungeon and Dragons nerd with talking about sports. But even though I call him a nerd, I do it affectionately. I love Bill.
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