Questions for the haters and the panic button pushers
Old 12-03-2009, 05:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Okay, some people don't like my use of the term "hater", so just ignore that part. I don't use the term the same way others might, so just forget the title. However, I do think some people are panic button pushers.

Over the past couple of days, a number of threads have emerged that indicate some forum members are very displeased with the Raptors, and are ready to hit the panic button. Regardless of the fact that a few members have suggested that it's still early in the season, that hasn't stopped others from insisting that the team is a bust and Triano and BC have failed. Quite a few want Triano fired already. Some people are reluctantly pushing the panic button, while others appear almost gleeful to see the team struggle (I've noticed a few "I told you so" type posts).

So, I have a couple of questions. None of you should be shy about answering these questions. Several threads are full of comments indicating which forum members are ready to take drastic action. Here are the questions:

1 - Do you think the Raptors will make the playoffs? Why or why not? Be ready to explain yourself, because I don't think all of you know what's been going on in the East lately.

2 - What do the Raptors (and Triano) have to accomplish this season for you to change your mind about things? I'm talking minimun standards. To be clear, again, this is not about meeting your ideal standards for how the season should play out. I want to know what's the least that needs to happen for you to say to yourself, "hey, the end result did not merit the comments I expressed at the 20 game mark. Maybe next season I'll relax and realize how much can happen in a long 82 game season."

To be clear, I'm not suggesting people shouldn't be dissapointed. From my perspective, this is about the extent of the dissapointment, given the variables involved. Moreover, it's about the solutions people are proposing this early in the season.

Now please answer the questions.

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Old 12-03-2009, 05:41 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Nice attempt Armchair lol.... but the beauty of being a hater is that you never have to justify anything or explain yourself.

You just have to say "I told you so".
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Old 12-03-2009, 05:53 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Typically haters don't use facts to support their beliefs. A lot of people who are upset have stated their reasons. They don't sound like haters, they sound like disappointed, upset fans.

ONe more thing. You can't a person be upset, yet not panicking?
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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1 - Do you think the Raptors will make the playoffs? Why or why not?
- yes i do. i still think they are very capable and getting your ass handed to you like in atlanta should wake up some players. it may be close, but i think they can still make the playoffs.

2 - What do the Raptors (and Triano) have to accomplish this season for you to change your mind about things?
- show some effort. must change the effort level. if i can see that we tried, and we still lost i will be fine with that. the better team won that night.
however, when we half ass a game or just give up in the second half then i will continue to be frustrated. once we put the effort in for a full 48 mins, we will win.

im not a hater, or a panic button pusher. im just frustrated. thsi group is capable of bigger and better things.
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
Typically haters don't use facts to support their beliefs. A lot of people who are upset have stated their reasons. They don't sound like haters, they sound like disappointed, upset fans.

ONe more thing. You can't a person be upset, yet not panicking?
Fair enough. Maybe I should have used a different word than "hater", as clearly people use it differently. Perhaps my definition of "hater" is not appropriate. I will definitely concede that.

As for panicking, of course you can be upset without panicking. I'd be surprised if any hardcore fans are not at least a bit upset with the past 4 games. However, not everyone who is upset thinks the season is over and that the Coach and the GM need to be fired.

I said this isn't just about people being dissapointed. I am dissapointed, too. It's about the extent of the dissapointment and the solutions being proposed.

Maybe I should change the title of the thread?
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:11 PM   #6 (permalink)
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1 - Do you think the Raptors will make the playoffs? Why or why not?
- yes i do. i still think they are very capable and getting your ass handed to you like in atlanta should wake up some players. it may be close, but i think they can still make the playoffs.

2 - What do the Raptors (and Triano) have to accomplish this season for you to change your mind about things?
- show some effort. must change the effort level. if i can see that we tried, and we still lost i will be fine with that. the better team won that night.
however, when we half ass a game or just give up in the second half then i will continue to be frustrated. once we put the effort in for a full 48 mins, we will win.

im not a hater, or a panic button pusher. im just frustrated. thsi group is capable of bigger and better things.
Fair enough. Well said.
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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1 - Do you think the Raptors will make the playoffs? Why or why not?
No. I don't care if we're only 1-2 games back at this point. This team does not want it... They are not competitive. We have the worst defense of all time and teams have figured out how to stop our offense because it one-dimensional. You can't have a top 3 offense without versatility. All our points come from jumpshots and screen and rolls. We have no post play, no fastbreak, nobody that can penetrate at will to break the defense down. Furthermore when you rely on jumpers so much at some point in the game you're going to go cold, at which point because we have the worst defense of all time we get blown out. (this usually happens in the 3rd quarter). A team with the all-time worst defense and even a middle ground offense is going to lose every single game. That's how bad our defense is right now statistically. We have worse defense than the Nets have offense. The Nets have the 30th offense and 14th defense and are 0-18. So it's reasonable if we have the 30th defense and 14th offense we're about as good as the Nets. IMO that's a much more accurate placing for our offense than top 3 like it was most of the season. Again we get no easy points, it's all jumpers. If our offense is average from now and defensively we don't improve we will be a bottom 3 team in the league

We're also a piss poor road and back to back team because we can't keep up with energized home teams.

All indications are this season is about to get even worse. Bosh is tired out and is about 3 games away from checking his mind into Miami mentally, and the post-game interviews last night motioning towards the coach losing the lockerroom. This team has a much better chance of hitting 13-27 far before 20-20, IMO. Call me a pessimist but that's what I foresee. We suck.

[/quote]

Quote:

2 - What do the Raptors (and Triano) have to accomplish this season for you to change your mind about things? I'm talking minimun standards. To be clear, again, this is not about meeting your ideal standards for how the season should play out. I want to know what's the least that needs to happen for you to say to yourself, "hey, the end result did not merit the comments I expressed at the 20 game mark. Maybe next season I'll relax and realize how much can happen in a long 82 game season."

Now please answer the questions.
They need to get their defensive act together. I'm not saying they need to be a good defensive team or even an average one. I'm talking improving so we're on the level of the Warriors and Grizzlies and Knicks level as a league worst defense team and not an all-time worst one. They need to stop giving open dunks. They need to start rotating and communicating and having a real system. And Bargnani needs to start giving effort on that end.

If they can get to 18-22 after 40 games I'll be fine with this season and optimistic of us making a playoff spot.

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Old 12-03-2009, 06:45 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I think that BC has assembled a roster with more than enough talent to get a playoff spot, which i think they will still do despite all the current doom and gloom.
My major frustration so far has been the lack of ability to make adjustments in game, along with the embarrassing lack of heart and effort. The players we have are who they are, on the whole not great defenders, but i dont think they are being used correctly.
To claim a playoff spot the first thing that needs to be addressed are the issues being brought up by Jack and Wright, and not by being a petty little bitch benching guys who question the coaching schemes. The schemes devised by the coaches are not working, they need to be adapted, new rotations have to be devised and not so set in stone.
Triano looks beat down already, and the throwing in of the towel yesterday was as unacceptable as the defensive performance by the players on the court. He looks lost and in over his head, which is were he should be getting much more help and input from his assistants, who also have to take their share of the blame for the poor schemes both defensively and offensively.
I am not a hater but i am extremley dissappointed at this point in the season, it is still early and there is more than enough time to get everyone openly communicating with each other and being there for each other out on the court.
I would also like to see Triano getting fired up and going after the refs every game, this is a tactic thats totally overused by coaches but Jay needs to be as much of a dick as other coaches out there, bitch at the refs for the full 48, giving them shit and getting as many techs as necessary to set the example an fire up the team, maybe even an ejection or two. The same goes for his post games, no more softly softly say it like it happened, ie the ref were a disgrace, they swung momentum in favour of the other team, where were the calls for our guys getting hacked, etc etc, get a few fines, the team is playing like Jay handles himself. Light the fire Jay!!
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:03 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I think this team without question will make the playoffs if the coach starts to do his job, meaning assembling a team that gets results out of the assembled talent.

What does Triano have to accomplish? He needs to get some results.

I don't necessarily think the guy needs to be fired, but he does have to make some of the tough decisions required by an NBA coach, or he'll be invisible anyways. And the lack of results while the coach makes no suggestion that anything needs to be changed, looks incredibly bad in the face of everything that Sam tried to do to get a much lesser team to a consistent .500 mark and then got yanked for not getting the desired results.
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:03 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I actually think the panacers are underestimating how bad this season could get. Right now our DRTG is an ungodly 118.3 (by comparison the worst ever is something like 114.5). Let's say we finish 8th in the league offensively, which last year was good for 110.1 ORTG. Our DRTG improves to 115.3 which again could be generous considering where we are now. Even then, our adjusted average margin of victory is something like -5.2, which would've been 5th worst in the league last year and translated out to 23-25 wins.

I know this ORTG/DRTG stuff seems like statistical mumbo jumbo, but most teams' records cooreleate pretty well with their average margin of victory/losses. Even if we keep Bosh we're on track to be one a bottom 5 or 6 team in the league. If we maintain an all-time worst defense, the only way we can be competitive and not be one of the very worst teams in the league is by having a top 3-5 offense. Which I have SERIOUS doubts about because our how predictable and one-dimensional we are

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Old 12-03-2009, 07:07 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The MVP of West Hollywood View Post
I actually think the panacers are underestimating how bad this season could get. Right now our DRTG is an ungodly 118.3 (by comparison the worst ever is something like 114.5). Let's say we finish 8th in the league offensively, which last year was good for 110.1 ORTG. Our DRTG improves to 116.0 which again could be generous. Even then, our adjusted average margin of victory is something like -5.7, which would've been 5th worst in the league last year and translated out to 23-25 wins.

I know this ORTG/DRTG stuff seems like statistical mumbo jumbo, but most teams' records cooreleate pretty well with their average margin of victory/losses. Even if we keep Bosh we're on track to be one a bottom 5 or 6 team in the league
Hence the need to make some tough decisions. There's no need for those numbers to remain as the status quo. But avoiding all possibility of doing what is needed to improve upon them is inane, and I think it would have to be unsustainable. Surely Triano does not just want to pretend he is a coach. Time to do his job already.
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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People might call me a bandwagon hopper, but I'm simply tired of watching the same repetitive drivel this team puts out every single season for the past four or so. Why should I subject myself to this uncritically? It's a much shorter and not as tragic form of psychosis currently called the Maple Leafs fan base.
But it's still a kind of psychosis none-the-less.
I didn't watch last night's and I won't be watching any of their games for the foreseeable future.
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:31 PM   #13 (permalink)
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People might call me a bandwagon hopper, but I'm simply tired of watching the same repetitive drivel this team puts out every single season for the past four or so. Why should I subject myself to this uncritically? It's a much shorter and not as tragic form of psychosis currently called the Maple Leafs fan base.
But it's still a kind of psychosis none-the-less.
I didn't watch last night's and I won't be watching any of their games for the foreseeable future.
I'm with you there. I don't get up for games and I don't watch them closely all the way through. I don't think I'm wrong in expecting them to move towards real stability at this point. I've Known all kinds of people who lost interest in them over the years without any qualms. To them the team was just not worth paying attention to much, and they wouldn't until they showed some results. It's taken me fifteen years, but I'm very rapidly approaching that point.

I'm so glad I didn't buy even the cheapest of mini-packs this season. Being at a game where the fans cheer at the end of loss number 4 in a row, because they managed to get a slice of pizza would have made me crack wide open.
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:32 PM   #14 (permalink)
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here goes,

1) Do I think the Raps will make the playoffs? Yup, they should get at least the 6 or 7 seed in this conference.
I was expecting the team to compete for the 4-6 seed, and they still might. But more realistically 6-8.

2) The goals for the team this year? Get some consistency in their play on both ends. I think myself (and most people) are bitching at the ease at which teams are scoring on the raps. If we have a .500 team here, that's fine. But I don't believe were are just mediocre.

I personally think this is a crossroads year for the organization. The team has two different groups of players that play well with each other, but not with the other group.
I think Jose and Bosh play well with each other but do not get the other players involved enough in touches.
I think that Bellineli, Bargnani, and Hedo play well together, but have not been given a consistent chance this year to showcase that chemistry.
I look at this team and say it's clear that the coach favors one of these groups - and has done everything in his power to ensure that they get as many touches as possible, even at the expense of the other players.
Things are not clicking for this team right now, but I'm sure they will straighten it out. I just hope that the coach doesn't keep putting his eggs in one basket, just to see that basket walk at year end. Otherwise he can go be his ballboy again for another team.
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I'm with you there. I don't get up for games and I don't watch them closely all the way through. I don't think I'm wrong in expecting them to move towards real stability at this point. I've Known all kinds of people who lost interest in them over the years without any qualms. To them the team was just not worth paying attention to much, and they wouldn't until they showed some results. It's taken me fifteen years, but I'm very rapidly approaching that point.

I'm so glad I didn't buy even the cheapest of mini-packs this season. Being at a game where the fans cheer at the end of loss number 4 in a row, because they managed to get a slice of pizza would have made me crack wide open.
But I think your last point is the most provocative thing of all. Colangelo is a businessman and if you read between the lines and you look at the language he uses to describe the team in press conferences and scrums, he uses the word "product". How can we get the best product out to our consuming fan base? This isn't semantics. This is his approach, and the approach of MLSE. A real team committed to winning would ditch the free pizza and bring in guys that do the dirty work, not a token reggie evans, but a scorer who plays defense, and an organization committed to winning, not putting out a good product. It might not sell a lot of tickets at first but this has to be a big picture thing, and if you win, regardless of how it's done, though playing defense generates more opportunities for you to outscore your opponents, then the money would come rolling in.

Again, the psychosis here isn't only the fan base, it encompasses the festering stink that is MLSE, their board, and their business model.
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:42 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I think you are usually right armchair, but in this particular case is not that we're bad, we're historically bad. This team looks so lost right now that you almost wish there's something going on to justify it.

Of course, many arguments are just ridiculous, and whoever says that these are not good players is out of his mind. The problem is not that the players are not good enough (for a .500 record at least), but that as a team they are severely underperforming.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:20 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Well on the brightside it looks like Toronto sports has a new franchise player (Kessel), on the eve of Halladay and Bosh's departures
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:55 PM   #18 (permalink)
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No. I don't care if we're only 1-2 games back at this point. This team does not want it... They are not competitive. We have the worst defense of all time and teams have figured out how to stop our offense because it one-dimensional. You can't have a top 3 offense without versatility. All our points come from jumpshots and screen and rolls. We have no post play, no fastbreak, nobody that can penetrate at will to break the defense down. Furthermore when you rely on jumpers so much at some point in the game you're going to go cold, at which point because we have the worst defense of all time we get blown out. (this usually happens in the 3rd quarter). A team with the all-time worst defense and even a middle ground offense is going to lose every single game. That's how bad our defense is right now statistically. We have worse defense than the Nets have offense. The Nets have the 30th offense and 14th defense and are 0-18. So it's reasonable if we have the 30th defense and 14th offense we're about as good as the Nets. IMO that's a much more accurate placing for our offense than top 3 like it was most of the season. Again we get no easy points, it's all jumpers. If our offense is average from now and defensively we don't improve we will be a bottom 3 team in the league

We're also a piss poor road and back to back team because we can't keep up with energized home teams.

All indications are this season is about to get even worse. Bosh is tired out and is about 3 games away from checking his mind into Miami mentally, and the post-game interviews last night motioning towards the coach losing the lockerroom. This team has a much better chance of hitting 13-27 far before 20-20, IMO. Call me a pessimist but that's what I foresee. We suck.


They need to get their defensive act together. I'm not saying they need to be a good defensive team or even an average one. I'm talking improving so we're on the level of the Warriors and Grizzlies and Knicks level as a league worst defense team and not an all-time worst one. They need to stop giving open dunks. They need to start rotating and communicating and having a real system. And Bargnani needs to start giving effort on that end.

If they can get to 18-22 after 40 games I'll be fine with this season and optimistic of us making a playoff spot.[/quote]

I appreciate how well you stated your position. I have a follow up question, if you feel like answering it. Since you don't think the Raps will likely make the playoffs, which teams do you think will get in? Of course I am asking you to base this off of what you've seen so far, and not a bunch of hypotheticals like potential trades. So, if the Raps don't get in, who does? Which teams fill the 6-8 spots?
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:23 PM   #19 (permalink)
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No ones being a hater, we're being fucking realistic. This teams already disapointed and shows no signs of improvement what so ever. You don't win in this league (or go very far in the playoffs) without playing defense and we can't/won't play defense.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:30 PM   #20 (permalink)
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They need to get their defensive act together. I'm not saying they need to be a good defensive team or even an average one. I'm talking improving so we're on the level of the Warriors and Grizzlies and Knicks level as a league worst defense team and not an all-time worst one. They need to stop giving open dunks. They need to start rotating and communicating and having a real system. And Bargnani needs to start giving effort on that end.

If they can get to 18-22 after 40 games I'll be fine with this season and optimistic of us making a playoff spot.
I appreciate how well you stated your position. I have a follow up question, if you feel like answering it. Since you don't think the Raps will likely make the playoffs, which teams do you think will get in? Of course I am asking you to base this off of what you've seen so far, and not a bunch of hypotheticals like potential trades. So, if the Raps don't get in, who does? Which teams fill the 6-8 spots?[/quote]

At this point i would predict

1. Orlando
2. Cleveland
3. Boston
4. Atlanta
5. Miami
6. Washington
7. Charlotte
8. Chicago

With Philadelphia, Indiana, Milwaukee all around the 35 win range ahead of us.
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