The Power Forward: The least important position on your NBA team.

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Old 11-27-2009, 01:26 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Unhappy The Power Forward: The least important position on your NBA team.

I am positive that I will be receiving some less than stellar responses for this, but quite frankly I don't care. I decided to take a page out of 'Trane's mod book of power and do this without calling anyone any fun playground names and actually back up my position with facts and an informed opinion. So here it goes...

The Power Forward: The least important position on your team...
Another Chris Bosh Rant on RF


Much has been made of the free agent class of 2010.
Lebron, Wade and an enormous collection of sidekicks are available at the end of the summer. Chris Bosh included. Bosh has been taking exception to the fact that he hasn't really been brought up in discussions in the same revery inspiring light that the rest of his draft class has been, and hey, he's a competitive guy (peep the Youtube vids!) why should he be content as an accessory and not a center piece?

LeBron and Wade will receive (and Carmelo Anthony, who already signed his I believe) maximum dollars and they rightfully deserve and merit it based on performance and ability. But there is also a handful of other players that have been throwing around the idea of getting max dollars from a (or their) team. Chris Bosh is one of them. For the record, he is not worth it.

BUT BUT BUT WHY?!?!? He's the "leader"! The "Franchise Player"!! (Thanks Devlin)
You really want to know why? It has nothing to do with his abilities as a player (OK maybe a little). But truthfully it is because he plays the least important position in the game of basketball.
The power forward.

Now don't get me wrong, there are some great PF's in the league, in the GAME as a whole. BUT... Can anyone think of any PF's that have been the captain of their team and led them to a finals WIN, not an appearance, but a WIN. Go ahead, think about that. I'm going to make a sandwich and come back..... ...... ..... ..... ..........

Ok... Still nothing? big surprise...
Oh wait, your going to bring up Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett.
Well... It took Ray Allen AND Paul Pierce to get it done for KG. And for Duncan, he needed Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli, plus a Hall of Fame Coach, none of which the Raptors have.
Dirk? Well the results of his team speak for themselves.
Amare? See Dirk...
Boozer? Even with an amazing cast to help him out and the invincible Jerry Sloane he still got crushed by the Bulls and Jordan. Twice. In a row.

Quite simply if you want to win in todays NBA you need a bonafide superstar (Jordan, Wade, Kobe) and a few more all-star caliber players, none of which play Power Forward...

Bosh is not a superstar, in fact, he's really only barely an all-star (he averaged 20-10 last year, and thats great. It took him right up until the LAST game to actually get it, however. Talk about last minute...).

Give him MAX and surround him with a bunch of almost-all-star-caliber-but-not-really players and you get today's defensively malnourished Toronto Raptors. Sure Bosh is playing great.
But keep in mind.
1) It's a contract year, it's to be expected. See: Hedo Turkoglu in the playoffs last year
2) He will not perform like this all year. Extra weight or not.
3) Every major PF to win a championship has had an enormous chunk of help (Odom/Pau/Kobe, KG/Pierce/Allen, Duncan/Manu/Parker)

So what exactly am I suggesting?

You want a championship? Here is what you need.
1) Solid bench
2) All-star center
3) Outrageously good shooting guard or point guard
4) All-star shooting guard or point guard
5) and a good coach who knows how to use and motivate his players to the best of their ability.

The Raps have none of these at this point in time. No PF's on the list anywhere. Why? Cuz they just don't matter enough.

Many of the more successful teams have had some form of this blueprint. (Wade/Shaq, Kobe/Shaq, Malone/Olajuwon) All had great coaches, and solid benches.

I'm not suggesting what we do if we let him go, be it by trade or w/e.
I'm just saying, in the history of the game, PF's are not the impact players guards and centers can be and as much as I'd love for Bosh to buck the trend, that really doesn't seem likely, at least based on previous championship teams.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:33 AM   #2 (permalink)
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This is the most bogus article I ever read

Sincerely,

Kevin Mchale
Charles Barkley
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:38 AM   #3 (permalink)
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lol.

So basically the following players were not integral to the championships that their respective teams have won: Garnett, Gasol, and ESPECIALLY TIM DUNCAN.

Without Gasol, Bryant wouldn't have won last year's championship. Without Garnett, the Celtics would not have won the year before. Without Tim Duncan, the Spurs wouldn't have won four rings dating back to 1999. Without Dirk Nowitzki, the Mavs wouldn't have made it to the Finals a couple years ago. What do all these teams have in common? A power-forward who is DAMN WELL IMPORTANT to their NBA squad.

6 out of the 9 championships that have been won in this decade ALONE have been because the player who plays at the PF position of their respective teams is the best or second best player on the team.

Therefore, before you go on a long rant that almost 99% of the board will not even read because of how bogus it is, think about the facts.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:39 AM   #4 (permalink)
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DVS beat me to it lol.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:41 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DVS View Post
This is the most bogus article I ever read

Sincerely,

Kevin Mchale
Charles Barkley
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
I just explained Garnett (who was the star of Minny for years and didn't win anything) and Duncan (who has always been surrounded by top talent).

Mchale was a little before my time, but in the 1981 final Cedric Maxwell was the MVP, not him, in the 1984 and 1986 finals it was this guy you may have heard of called Larry Bird who got MVP both years.

ALL OF THE ABOVE PLAYERS HAD MULTIPLE GUYS HELPING THEM ON THE TEAM. They never managed to do it alone and thats my point.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:42 AM   #6 (permalink)
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LOL i knew i'd get shit for this...

My point wasn't to discredit power forwards. I probably shouldn't have given the thread this title.

My point was Bosh is not going to be able to do this alone, and being that we dont have the ability to attract a Tony Parker, Larry Bird or Moses Malone, spending max dollars on Bosh isn't necessarily a good idea...
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:44 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Having Manu and Parker helped TD win a few more rings..But he did it without them in 99' by winning the Finals MVP alongside an aged Admiral..Unlike Bosh though, he can play the center position more effectively.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:44 AM   #8 (permalink)
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lol.

So basically the following players were not integral to the championships that their respective teams have won: Garnett, Gasol, and ESPECIALLY TIM DUNCAN.

Without Gasol, Bryant wouldn't have won last year's championship. Without Garnett, the Celtics would not have won the year before. Without Tim Duncan, the Spurs wouldn't have won four rings dating back to 1999. Without Dirk Nowitzki, the Mavs wouldn't have made it to the Finals a couple years ago. What do all these teams have in common? A power-forward who is DAMN WELL IMPORTANT to their NBA squad.

6 out of the 9 championships that have been won in this decade ALONE have been because the player who plays at the PF position of their respective teams is the best or second best player on the team.

Therefore, before you go on a long rant that almost 99% of the board will not even read because of how bogus it is, think about the facts.
Ya but my point is the MAVS LOST WITH DIRK as the star player on the team. Without Gasol the Lakers wouldnt have won the championship, true, but without Kobe they probably wouldnt even be IN the playoffs...

do you see what i'm getting at.

PF's arent USELESS, they're just not as integral as a strong center, point guard or shooting guard...
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:44 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I just explained Garnett (who was the star of Minny for years and didn't win anything) and Duncan (who has always been surrounded by top talent).

Mchale was a little before my time, but in the 1981 final Cedric Maxwell was the MVP, not him, in the 1984 and 1986 finals it was this guy you may have heard of called Larry Bird who got MVP both years.

ALL OF THE ABOVE PLAYERS HAD MULTIPLE GUYS HELPING THEM ON THE TEAM. They never managed to do it alone and thats my point.
Then again, who really DOES do it by themselves?

Michael Jordan sure as hell didn't do it by himeslf.
Kobe Bryant sure as hell didn't do it by himself.
Bill Russell sure as hell didn't win 10 NBA championships by himself.
Larry Bird and Magic Johnson sure as hell didn't win their championships by themselves.

The list goes on. Not being able to do it by themselves isn't restricted to just power forwards.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:45 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Having Manu and Parker helped TD win a few more rings..But he did it without them in 99' by winning the Finals MVP alongside an aged Admiral..Unlike Bosh though, he can play the center position more effectively.
thank you...
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:46 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Then again, who really DOES do it by themselves?

Michael Jordan sure as hell didn't do it by himeslf.
Kobe Bryant sure as hell didn't do it by himself.
Bill Russell sure as hell didn't win 10 NBA championships by himself.
Larry Bird and Magic Johnson sure as hell didn't win their championships by themselves.

The list goes on. Not being able to do it by themselves isn't restricted to just power forwards.
True. But there are many more teams that did not have a star PF that have won...

Again the point of the post wasnt to discredit PF's. It was to say Bosh isnt worth max and this is why... its just another spin on what some people are saying...
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:47 AM   #12 (permalink)
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True. But there are many more teams that did not have a star PF that have won...

Again the point of the post wasnt to discredit PF's. It was to say Bosh isnt worth max and this is why...
Then who, my friend, is worth a max contract?

Lebron, Kobe, Wade.

That is it. Too bad there are 30 teams in this league and not just 3. Thus, max contracts will be given out to players that may NOT be able to "do it by themselves".. i.e. Rashard Lewis, T-Mac, VC, Arenas, etc... and I'm pretty sure you will agree with me that Bosh is more valuable than all those players.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:49 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Then who, my friend, is worth a max contract?

Lebron, Kobe, Wade.

That is it. Too bad there are 30 teams in this league and not just 3. Thus, max contracts must be given out to players that may NOT be able to "do it by themselves".. i.e. Rashard Lewis, T-Mac, VC, Arenas, etc.
But look at the teams they are on man!

T-Mac (apparently the rockets dont even want him back this year and want to trade him)
Arenas (seriously, i think the Wiz play better without him when the rest of the team is healthy)
VC (he may actually be worth Max, he just has an attitude problem which is unfortunate because he could have been much bigger than he turned out to be)
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:56 AM   #14 (permalink)
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But look at the teams they are on man!

T-Mac (apparently the rockets dont even want him back this year and want to trade him)
Arenas (seriously, i think the Wiz play better without him when the rest of the team is healthy)
VC (he may actually be worth Max, he just has an attitude problem which is unfortunate because he could have been much bigger than he turned out to be)
Simple economics explains why players that may necessarily not be worth a max contract end up getting one anyway. The supply of superstars in this league is nowhere close to the demand that each team has of acquiring at least one. You can count the number of superstars in this league on ONE hand, but there are 30 teams. Therefore, teams WILL have to offer them to other players, who are CLOSE to superstar level.

Bosh is not a max contract player, but he is close to being worth one. And if it takes a little extra money just to keep him here, then its better that the team do so instead of losing him to another team that WILL offer him the max contract, and they will improve GREATLY, while we SUFFER greatly.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:59 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Simple economics explains why players that may necessarily not be worth a max contract end up getting one anyway. Bosh is not a max contract player, but he is close to being worth one. And if it takes a little extra money just to keep him here, then its better that the team do so instead of losing him to another team that WILL offer him the max contract, and they will improve GREATLY, while we SUFFER greatly.
ok, fair enough.
theoretically though, if i stick by my idea of the not-so-effective-PF's

if we signed Bosh, and traded him for a shooting guard and a true center, without mentioning specific names, would we not be better off? move Bargs to his natural position, which is Power Forward (it would be very interesting to see how he plays at PF with Bosh gone) and have a true center take his place. get a good starting SG and the Raps are far more competitive (pending who we actually get) than with Bosh AND Bargs overloading the PF position...
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Old 11-27-2009, 02:04 AM   #16 (permalink)
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ok, fair enough.
theoretically though, if i stick by my idea of the not-so-effective-PF's

if we signed Bosh, and traded him for a shooting guard and a true center, without mentioning specific names, would we not be better off? move Bargs to his natural position, which is Power Forward (it would be very interesting to see how he plays at PF with Bosh gone) and have a true center take his place. get a good starting SG and the Raps are far more competitive (pending who we actually get) than with Bosh AND Bargs overloading the PF position...
I highly doubt that by trading Bosh, the Raptors will receive fair value for him. I sometimes wonder why almost every Raptor fan believes that the solution to our PF 'overloaded' problem is to TRADE BOSH, when trading Bargnani would seem like a much more viable option for me.
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Old 11-27-2009, 02:34 AM   #17 (permalink)
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You want a championship? Here is what you need.
1) Solid bench
2) All-star center
3) Outrageously good shooting guard or point guard
4) All-star shooting guard or point guard
5) and a good coach who knows how to use and motivate his players to the best of their ability.
Sounds like you're making a pitch for Smitch, there.
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Old 11-27-2009, 02:39 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Boozer? Even with an amazing cast to help him out and the invincible Jerry Sloane he still got crushed by the Bulls and Jordan. Twice. In a row.
I'm guessing you meant Karl Malone.
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Old 11-27-2009, 03:14 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I sometimes wonder why almost every Raptor fan believes that the solution to our PF 'overloaded' problem is to TRADE BOSH, when trading Bargnani would seem like a much more viable option for me.
I think it's because we are constantly told we are going to lose Bosh at the end of this year, no matter what we do. Bargnani's game obviously isn't par with Bosh's right now, but it's hard to suggest trading him over CB4 when all you hear is that Bosh plans to leave town ASAP.

I really wish more of the people on this site would view the Raptors as a team rather than just a group of players they judge individually. It would be better for everyone.
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Old 11-27-2009, 05:58 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dutches View Post
I am positive that I will be receiving some less than stellar responses for this, but quite frankly I don't care. I decided to take a page out of 'Trane's mod book of power and do this without calling anyone any fun playground names and actually back up my position with facts and an informed opinion. So here it goes...

The Power Forward: The least important position on your team...
Another Chris Bosh Rant on RF



.

First off, as I've said in other threads, I think it's risky to give ALMOST ANY player a max contract. Very few are worth that money. I would have no problem with Bosh being traded, so long as the Raps got value in return. That is, an All-Star caliber player at any position.

Your post gave me some serious lulz, though. And not because I necessarily disagree with you on Bosh getting the max, but rather because, in places, your argument is very poor. As other people have pointed out, all players who win championships need help. You can point to all kinds of examples of good shooting guards and centers who did not win championships. A host of various combinations have been used in "big threes" that have brought home a title. It's not always the same positions in those "big threes." Furthermore, the talent contributed from each position is not always the same on a championship team. The main point is, different combos can get the job done; there is no single blueprint. Sometimes the center is the most important in the "big three", sometimes a "guard" is the most important in the "big three" and sometimes it's a power forward, as in the case of Tim Duncan with the Spurs. Sometimes a team wins by committee like the Pistons in 2004. Your reductionist thinking is NOT well informed. You point to Ginobolli and Parker when dismissing Duncan, even though Kobe needed Pau and Odom. In the case of the Spurs, Duncan is the main guy, for the most part, like Kobe is for the Lakers. Ginobolli and Parker, for the most part, were the Odom and Pau of the Spurs. Sorry, bro, that's a double standard. Logic fail.

Duncan won the regular season MVP twice. He is the captain and the leader. Parker and Ginobs may have hit big shots in the playoffs, but they are not MVP candidates year after year after year, like Duncan has been. Parker had a big series against Cleveland in 2007, but Duncan was the focal point of that team over the long haul. Garnett won the regular season MVP as well. Garnett is the Celts anchor. Pierce and Allen have never even been close to winning an MVP. Pierce won the finals MVP because he was most valuable in that particluar series, but the "big three" got there together. Pierce and Garnett needed each other. EVERYBODY needs help to win a championship. It does not matter what position you play.

I want to point out some logical contradictions in your statments.

You said:

Quote:
Oh wait, your going to bring up Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett.
Well... It took Ray Allen AND Paul Pierce to get it done for KG. And for Duncan, he needed Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli, plus a Hall of Fame Coach, none of which the Raptors have.
Ugh. You could just as easily change your statement about Garnett to this:

"It took KG and Ray Allen to get it done for Pierce."

or this: "It took KG and Paul Pierce to get it done for Ray Allen."

If you wanted to talk about Kobe, you coud say this:

"It took Odom and Gasol to get it done for Kobe."

All of those players needed help, yet you single out KG to suit your purposes.

So, what if Duncan needed Parker and Ginobli? So what if KG needed Allen and Pierce. If you have an allstar point guard or shooting guard, you still need to surround that player with talented big man. Again, you apply a double standard.The need for talent is still the same no matter who is the lead player in your "big three." There are a number of ways to build a championship team, but you need multiple stars.

Is the Raptors lineup fixed forever? How do you know it won't change? Saying Duncan needed help is not a logical reason for why Bosh shouldn't get the Max. AGAIN, EVERYBODY NEEDS HELP. Make a stronger argument. As for the coach, you don't know who will be coaching the Raps in two years, so, again, not the greatest argument. Popovich's team sucked in 1996-97. His record in recent years has a lot to do with the talent on his team. It's largely about the right mix of players, even if Pop is an awesome coach. Pop's personnel decisions are more important than his coaching decisions. You don't know for sure that the Raps won't hire an awesome coach in a couple of years, and you don't know what trades are coming. BC is not shy about making trades.

You also said this:

Quote:
Quite simply if you want to win in todays NBA you need a bonafide superstar (Jordan, Wade, Kobe) and a few more all-star caliber players, none of which play Power Forward...
I thought you said your opinion was well informed? I wouldn't have taken that shot at you, but you joked about making yourself a sandwich, so you kind of deserved it.

So, Kobe's help is not coming in the form of an all-star calibre Power Forward? Two of the top four players on the Lakers are power forwards, for fuck's sake. Odom and Gasol. If you want to call Gasol a Center, then Bynum is the PF and the case is still the same; two of the top 4 players play PF.

As for Jordan, holy shit, dude, are you fucking serious? Again, when talking about all-star calibre help you said "none of which play Power Forward." Wow, just wow.

Ever heard of Dennis Rodman? Maybe you've heard of Horace Grant? Those were pretty important Power Forwards.

You said this about Bosh:

Quote:
Bosh is not a superstar, in fact, he's really only barely an all-star (he averaged 20-10 last year, and thats great. It took him right up until the LAST game to actually get it, however. Talk about last minute...).
Stats can be misleading, but still, bringing up the 20 and 10 was really a bad move to try and illustrate your point. Seriously, it can easily be turned around on you. Of the players who played at least 60 games last year, Dwight Howard is the only other one who averaged at least 20 points and 10 rebounds. Tim Duncan didn't even average 20 and 10 last year. If you include all categories, still only 3 players averaged 20 and 10 (Bosh, Howard, Paul).
Again, not a great way of making your point.

You also said this about championship teams:

Quote:
You want a championship? Here is what you need.
1) Solid bench
2) All-star center
3) Outrageously good shooting guard or point guard
4) All-star shooting guard or point guard
5) and a good coach who knows how to use and motivate his players to the best of their ability.
Obviously you need a good coach, and a solid bench really helps. However, 2 through 4 on your list are more complicated and you generalize way too much with those points.

The Celtics did not have an All-Star center when they won in 2008. The Bulls did not have an All-Star center for most of their 6 championships in the 1990's. The 2005 and 2007 Spurs did not have an All-Star center, either. In 2005, the Spurs used Rasho at Center. In 2007, Oberto and Elson started at Center for the Spurs.

Some teams have won without an "outrageously good" point guard as well. Here are examples from the last 15 years. I'd hardly call an old Kenny Smith (Rockets), an old Ron Harper (Bulls), Jason Williams, (Heat), or Derek Fisher (Lakers), "outrageously good" or an All-Star. Those point guards started on 9 of the last 15 championship squads (Smith 95; Harper 96,97,98; Fisher, 00,01,02,09; Williams, 06).

Now, let's look at the teams who had an All-Star PF over the last 15 years.

Bulls - 96, 97, 98: Rodman
Spurs - 99, 2003, 2005, 2007: Duncan
Pistons - 2004: Wallace
Celtics - 2008: Garnett
Lakers - 2009: Gasol (Odom is also arguably All-Star calibre).

On 10 of the past 15 championship teams, the PF was one of the stars, if not the lead star.


It should be clear to anyone who follows the game that a number of different combos can be used to win a championship. The goal is to try and get a group of solid players, which includes either 2 big time stars or 3 all stars. It doesn't really matter what the specific postions of the combo are, so long as you have at least one big and one guard in that combo. One way to NOT make that happen, or at least to really slow down the process, is to just let a star go when you have one. Switching the pieces around Bosh is probably easier than letting Bosh walk and starting all over again to find 2 or 3 stars.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 11-27-2009 at 06:06 AM.
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