Postgame thread: Atlanta Hawks 146 Toronto Raptors 115 - Page 6
Old 12-03-2009, 05:20 PM   #101 (permalink)
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thriller is by far and away one of the most knowledgeable posters we have ever had on this board letsrock. you may want to think and read a little more before you throw around those kinds of barbs.

and given that your evidence is a graph of fantasy stats, you might want to come at him with something a little more substantial...
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Old 12-03-2009, 05:41 PM   #102 (permalink)
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if you read the rotoworld graphs you posted, it says

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"graph displays the players career trajectory based on fantasy points accumulated in each year. projections were used for 2008"
not only is it fantasy points, but it's 2 years old.

thriller is using hyperbole to make a point. no one is going to ban you for your opinion, but if you want people to take you opinion seriously you need to come with something stronger than 2 year old fantasy stats.
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Old 12-03-2009, 05:50 PM   #103 (permalink)
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keep digging the hole letsrock. the stuff you posted in the picture and the links was from rotoworld - it's right there. the stats in the graph are fantasy points - taken from real stats, but the graph is for fantasy points. it even says so under the orange question mark. at least i bothered to check it. anyways, flame on. my point is made.
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:18 PM   #104 (permalink)
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LetsRock... do you honestly think that Hedo has played well this season so far?

That he's EARNING his contract? Because that's the issue here.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:35 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Look, I don't want to debate whether Hedo is better than VC or any of that shit, but some stuff being posted here is misleading. Letsrock could have made a stronger argument by using different stats. But Thriller is also showing VC way too much love and ignoring other facts, too. Thriller is speaking with too much emotion and not backing his shit up properly.

Of course VC is better athlete than Hedo, I doubt anybody would argue otherwise. But is he really a better option given the extra $7.3 million you have to pay him?

Here are VC's stats for THIS SEASON:

FG% 3FG% FGA PPG RPG APG A/TO
.409 .341 17.3 19.2 4.7 2.5 1.4


VC is massively underachieving, even with Dwight's great screens. Look at VC's shooting percentages, look at the low assist totals, and look at the 17 shot attempts that only net 19 points. VC is playing like a chucker. Orlando is winning in spite of him, not because of him. Orlando's record is the same as last year, too. With Hedo, Orlando was 16-4 after 20 games. So far, VC has not shown that he is worth more than Hedo, even if Thriller wants to believe it. Again, I'm not arguing whose the better athlete, I'm contesting Thriller's statement about VC's play THIS SEASON and how it is supposed to show that he earns his money and is better than Hedo and is worthy or $7.3 million more than Hedo.

I mean, this is what thriller said:
Quote:
VCs play this year has shown how much better he is than Turk and how everyone who said Turk was better in that big thread in the offseason should be banned.
Look, VC has had a better career than Turk, I won't argue otherwise. But Thriller's statement was somewhat dishonest, even if unintentional. At the very least, it is not supported by the facts, so far. And since it's not supported by the facts, he is talking out of his ass. Orlando has the same record as last year, and VC is playing quite poorly for a guy being paid over $16 million.

In my opinion, which is supported by the facts, VC has not shown that he is better than Turk in terms of value for your dollar or efficiency. When you consider that VC is in a much better situation and is given LOADS of touches, VC's play looks poor. When you put play aside, and look at it from the perspective of financial cost, thriller's statment looks even more out of touch with reality. VC is a very costly player who is not earning his cheque. He does not deserve a pass if Hedo is going to get ripped by people. That's extremely hypocritical.

What did Hedo give Orlando last year?

FG% 3FG% FGA PPG RPG APG A/TO
.413 .356 13.3 16.8 5.3 4.9 1.8

Shooting wise, it really wasn't much better than what VC is providing. But Hedo was distributing the ball much more effectively and scoring more efficiently than Carter. More assists and a better assist to turnover ratio. And even if you adjust the minutes and look at their per 36 minute assist totals, Hedo in 08-09 is still a better facilitator than Carter this year. Hedo beats Carter 4.8 assists to 2.8 assists. So it's not a matter of one playing way more minutes than the other. So nobody try to pull that bullshit argument.

So, now that I've established that Hedo is just as good as Carter when they both play for Orlando (but MUCH cheaper), let's look at Thriller's comments about Hedo coming to Toronto. Thriller said this:

Quote:
I said in the offseason there would be a big difference in his play because its a lot different when Dwight screens for you vs when Bargs or Bosh does.
Really? The screens are the problem? Is that supported by the facts? Or is that just another random comment like Carter's play this season is proving he earns his extra $7.3 million. Hmmm....

See, I watch a lot of the games closely, and in my opinion, Turk is playing okay on the offensive end, even if he has other deficiencies. But, as other observant forum members have pointed out, Turk is not getting the same touches he got in Orlando. All the panic button pushers are blind to the fact that Hedo isn't being used properly yet. We may see more from him. He gets fewer shots and fewer opportunities to create. In a nutshell, he's not being given the best chance to show his worth. Let's look at his actual stats and see if fucking screens matter more than simple touches. Hedo's stats in Toronto this season:

FG% 3FG% FGA PPG RPG APG A/TO
.446 .414 10.6 13.8 4.6 3.7 1.6


So far, Hedo does not miss Dwight's fucking screens. Hedo misses the fucking ball. He is shooting an outstanding clip from behind the arc. His overall percentage is solid. His assist totals aren't bad considering he doesn't get nearly as many touches as Carter. Yet, guess what? He has more assists than Carter this season!!! On OFFENSE, Hedo can work just fine in Toronto, if he was put in a better position to succeed. I am optimistic that he will get a better chance as the season goes on. Maybe Hedo will crash and burn? Who knows? My point is, Thriller's comments are almost as dishonest as Letsrock. One used shitty stats (letsrock) while the other offered opinion that is belied by other more accurate stats.

Look, you guys take from this what you will (go ahead and attack me for being a Hedo fanboy, even though I am not), but the facts do not support Thriller's brazen assertion that Carter has shown THIS SEASON that he is way better than Hedo. Also, the facts do not show that Hedo's play was going to drop off when he comes to Toronto. Hedo's offensive play doesn't have to drop off, just look at the shooting numbers and respectable assist totals he's put up. You have to take into account touches. If Turk got more of his minutes while paired with Jack, he'd probably do a better job of earning his cheque.

One last thing, this is about what Thriller said in his comments. I'm holding him accountable for those statements. I'm not saying I think Carter won't turn things around. He might. But so far, THIS SEASON, he has not demonstrated that he is better suited for Orlando or is worth paying extra for.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:43 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Let's not compare an 8 time all-star to a 4th option on any team in the league. Note that Hedo was not an all-star last year and Howard, Lewis and Nelson were.

Nelson and Lewis were picked by the coaches, and Hedo wanst.

I dont even need to compare the two anymore. Just watch the damn games.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:43 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmats7 View Post
Let's not compare an 8 time all-star to a 4th option on any team in the league. Note that Hedo was not an all-star last year and Howard, Lewis and Nelson were.

Nelson and Lewis were picked by the coaches, and Hedo wanst.

I dont even need to compare the two anymore. Just watch the damn games.
Of course Carter has had a better career and is a better athlete than Hedo. But the evidence does not suggest he is a better fit for Orlando or is doing any more than Hedo to earn his contract. Keep it real, Bmats, keep it real.

Now why the hell are you talking about All-Star selections in the past, when the issue is play this year. But since you brought it up, consider this:


1 - Nelson had an advantage because there was a shortage of worthy point guards in the East. So, given the lack of superstars, the first place you look to fill the spot is a winning team.

2 -Lewis also had a massive advantage due to position. See, if you were honest, you'd accept that the East was week in potential big men last year. After Bosh, Lewis was the only bigman reserve selected by the coaches. Garnett and Dwight started. So, after you pick Bosh, what other big are you going to select from the East? They basically picked Lewis by default because Orlando was doing so well. Hedo was not competing with Lewis, Hedo was competing with a stacked class of swingmen. Granger, Pierce, Ray Allen and Joe Johnson. Those are the swingmen whom the coaches picked. Hedo got beat out by them, not Lewis and Jameer.

3- I love how people say, "just watch the damn games," as if it's a substitute for an actual argument. If you think Hedo was the 4th option on the Magic, then maybe you need to "just watch the damn games." All-Star selections have to do with positions, they are not a straight up ranking of all players against each other.


If you hadn't shown up to defend Carter, I would have been worried that something had happened to you. I'm glad all is well.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:47 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Quote:
Look, VC has had a better career than Turk, I won't argue otherwise. But Thriller's statement was somewhat dishonest, even if unintentional. At the very least, it is not supported by the facts, so far. And since it's not supported by the facts, he is talking out of his ass. Orlando has the same record as last year, and VC is playing quite poorly for a guy being paid over $16 million.

In my opinion, which is supported by the facts, VC has not shown that he is better than Turk in terms of value for your dollar or efficiency. When you consider that VC is in a much better situation and is given LOADS of touches, VC's play looks poor. When you put play aside, and look at it from the perspective of financial cost, thriller's statment looks even more out of touch with reality. VC is a very costly player who is not earning his cheque. He does not deserve a pass if Hedo is going to get ripped by people. That's extremely hypocritical.
I'm looking at the big picture in what Ive seen from him in ORL this year.

Does he still take stupid shots and take too many shots? Absolutely.

I hate VC still but hes a damn good player so I try to not let my hatred get in the way of my overall opinion.

What Ive seen from him vs Turk from the last few years in ORLs offence is:

VC is a better playmaker off the dribble, he gets in the lane with much more ease, he finishes more shots around the rim(a lot of the time last year Hedo just threw it up off of the backboard for Dwight to off rebound, those same shots VC is hitting because of his athleticism), and most importantly he gets his teammates even better looks more frequently. To add onto that, he brings a new dimension to their offence in that he can isolate and take his man off the dribble, something Hedo can never do consistantly because Hedo doesnt have the creativity nor offensive ability or athleticism VC does.

To the rest of your post, Hedo absolutely isnt getting as many touches, but I still dont back off of my statement that he misses Dwights screens. As an offensive player if you dont get a good screen to operate with, youre facing the big covering the screen and roll, AND your man who has an easy time staying with you if the screen isnt good.

With Dwights screens Hedo was able to have open space and basically go 1 on 1 vs the opposing big and thus was able to attract the help defenders and open up the game for his teammates, much like VC has done this year for the Magic even though his assists arent leading directly to the shot, hes had a TON of hockey assists.

How many times a game THIS YEAR can you say Hedos got open looks for other guys with guys helping off their man to stop him from getting to the rim? Most of his direct passes off of the pic kand roll are going to Bosh who, when he catches it, attracts so much attention it often causes turnovers or bad shot attempts. Its a small thing Ive noticed but he hasnt had the same real estate and open lanes in the pick and roll sequences on our team despite having 2 very good offensive players playing P+R with him.

It makes a huge difference having a big who can screen well for you on pin downs and pick and roll sequences, it gets the pick man open shots or someone else an open shot off of the help.

A lot of the time though it seems like the bigs are tired and thus dont put as much energy into setting a good screen or getting into a good position to do so. Thats another thing Ive been extremely disappointed with is the teams lack of conditioning. Its incredibly noticeable especially in comparing it against other teams. Its embarrassing really.
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:59 PM   #109 (permalink)
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You some made some good points in your last post, and since I don't disagree with them all, it would be disingenuous for me to contest them all, so I wont.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thriller92 View Post
I'm looking at the big picture in what Ive seen from him in ORL this year.

Does he still take stupid shots and take too many shots? Absolutely.

I hate VC still but hes a damn good player so I try to not let my hatred get in the way of my overall opinion.
Sure. VC is a good player. In my opinion, though, he's just as overpriced as Turk. That's why I find it sort of strange that people get on Turk's contract when VC is paid a ridiculous amount.



Quote:
What Ive seen from him vs Turk from the last few years in ORLs offence is:

VC is a better playmaker off the dribble, he gets in the lane with much more ease, he finishes more shots around the rim(a lot of the time last year Hedo just threw it up off of the backboard for Dwight to off rebound, those same shots VC is hitting because of his athleticism), and most importantly he gets his teammates even better looks more frequently. To add onto that, he brings a new dimension to their offence in that he can isolate and take his man off the dribble, something Hedo can never do consistantly because Hedo doesnt have the creativity nor offensive ability or athleticism VC does.
There is no question that Carter brings more athleticism (ability to finish at the rim and create his own shot). Honestly, though, it's more difficult to prove that it's actually made Orlando a much better team. Vince is without a doubt a better athlete, but he has much poorer judgement, and from the 4 games I've seen of him in Orlando, that hasn't entirely changed (ie. the chucking). He brings something new to the table on both sides of the ledger. Some positives and negatives. I'm not sure I want to pay an extra $7.3 million for him.

Quote:
To the rest of your post, Hedo absolutely isnt getting as many touches, but I still dont back off of my statement that he misses Dwights screens. As an offensive player if you dont get a good screen to operate with, youre facing the big covering the screen and roll, AND your man who has an easy time staying with you if the screen isnt good.

With Dwights screens Hedo was able to have open space and basically go 1 on 1 vs the opposing big and thus was able to attract the help defenders and open up the game for his teammates, much like VC has done this year for the Magic even though his assists arent leading directly to the shot, hes had a TON of hockey assists.

How many times a game THIS YEAR can you say Hedos got open looks for other guys with guys helping off their man to stop him from getting to the rim? Most of his direct passes off of the pic kand roll are going to Bosh who, when he catches it, attracts so much attention it often causes turnovers or bad shot attempts. Its a small thing Ive noticed but he hasnt had the same real estate and open lanes in the pick and roll sequences on our team despite having 2 very good offensive players playing P+R with him.

It makes a huge difference having a big who can screen well for you on pin downs and pick and roll sequences, it gets the pick man open shots or someone else an open shot off of the help.
Some interesting thoughts that are well stated. There is no way of saying for certain without going back and looking at all the footage, but I would guess that you're right about Hedo attracting less help defenders this year when attacking the rim (due to the weaker screens). It's a pretty safe bet. The Raptors are getting a lot of open shots, though, and Hedo's presence is a major part of that. Other Raptors may not be making the shots (*cough* Phoenix game *cough*), but they are getting lots of open looks. Offense is not a problem. Jack and Jose, in particular, are getting wide open threes in this system; they just need to knock them down. The thing is, Hedo is playing just as efficiently in Toronto's system. I mean, certain options that were available in Orlando may not be available in Toronto, and you're definitely correct to point that out, but, at an individual level, he's technically producing just as much with what he's given here, at least statistically speaking. You said there'd be a "big difference" in his play without Dwight. If you meant his style of play rather than production, then some of my comments in that particular section of my last post were unfair. But given that you were using stats and refering to production when talking about Carter (his past 20/5/5), you certainly gave a strong impression that you were suggesting Hedo's numbers and effectiveness would drop due to the lack of Dwight's screens. It has not. Any statistical drop is due primarily to the fewer touches Hedo gets. He's still effective when he has the ball in Toronto's system. So, I think it's fair to say that Hedo may miss Dwight's screens in the sense that it makes his job easier (style of play), but, in terms of production, it has NOT rendered him ineffective. If Jay gets his shit together, I think Hedo can be even more effective with this group. Hedo may not get to the rim as much, but he has been getting some good looks at the hoop, and that's why he's shooting well. His defense is obviously another story.


Quote:
A lot of the time though it seems like the bigs are tired and thus dont put as much energy into setting a good screen or getting into a good position to do so. Thats another thing Ive been extremely disappointed with is the teams lack of conditioning. Its incredibly noticeable especially in comparing it against other teams. Its embarrassing really.
No argument here. Much of Andrea's poor play on the road can probably be attributed to that. Also explains why the Raps have an especially difficult time with back to backs.
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