POST GAME: Toronto Raptors 97 - San Antonio Spurs 107 - Page 6
Old 12-22-2008, 02:06 PM   #101 (permalink)
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I don't know anything...never said I did.

What I do know is when people contradict themselves all the time to suit their needs.

I hope the players appreciate 2-9...you know a sort of personal approach to losing.
I've seen enough from guys like Moon, Joey & Kapono to know that they CAN be effective players. IMO they're not "D-league talent" as some have seemed to suggest. The proof will be in the pudding when they go to another team and look great.

Blaming Triano for not being able to get our team to go 10-0 over the last stretch is the height of lunacy lol. You can hail Sam as "teh jesus" all you want and tell me how he'll excel in his next coaching gig and probably win COTY again but the fact of the matter is that the guys tuned him out and didn't want to play for him anymore.

I also keep hearing this 2-9... 2-9.... 2-9..... nevermind the fact that in those 9 losses were:

- a last second loss to POR

- a close loss to NOH

- a 10-pt loss to the Spurs

All 3 of those games were against VERY good teams and the Raps played well for the most part. But of course, how the guys play doesn't matter if they don't win the game right?

Go back through these last 11 and count the number of games that we REALLY played terrible in. UTH, CLE, DAL, OKC. 3 of those games against powerful WC teams.

If each of our 9 losses had been of the DEN variety I could understand the Triano hate.... but that hasn't been the case.
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:08 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Bottom line is, if people felt coaching was the issue, then BC should of wiped the slate clean and fired the entire staff. I like Jay as much as some of the others here do, but the "apple" and fundementals/philosophies don't fall too far from the tree. So people have to start making up their mind on whether they think its the coaching systems or the fact that we as fans as well Colangelo have overrated our talent.
We're still talking just over 10 games here Doc.

By the end of the season I think we'll have a better idea of how good (or bad) a coach Triano is.
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:10 PM   #103 (permalink)
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We're still talking just over 10 games here Doc.
Exactly and if anything we've looked even worse now than we did prior to Sam's departure. So, not sure what your trying to say. Are you implying that Jay needs more time to instill his own philosophies as a head coach?
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:13 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Exactly and if anything we've looked even worse now than we did prior to Sam's departure. So, not sure what your trying to say. Are you implying that Jay needs more time to instill his own philosophies as a head coach?
Really? That's one short memory you have there Doc. : |

How many games have you really hated under Triano?

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Old 12-22-2008, 02:13 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Exactly and if anything we've looked even worse now than we did prior to Sam's departure. So, not sure what your trying to say. Are you implying that Jay needs more time to instill his own philosophies as a head coach?
He does. Mybe if he had the offseason to make the players practice the plays and make them know the type of system the team is gonna be then "maybe " this team would've been better. MAybe once Jay gets like a month to practice with the team the Raps will know his philosphies and will start playing better
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:39 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Really? That's one short memory you have there Doc. : |

How many games have you really hated under Triano?
We live and die by the shot. Those 2 wins we won we were on our game with the shot especially beyond the 3 point line. Defense wasn't too shabby, but it was only Indiana and NJ who we beat. Certainly nothing to brag about. Since then, what has Jay done to change things? You'd think that eventhough we might not have the personnel to do so, we'd start changing things up a bit and drive more and more action in the post. Be a little less predictable. Be aggressive for heaven sakes.

Outside of the usual looks per game down low and drives to the hoop, have we really changed our mentally as being that jump shooting team that the league is already aware of us being? No, not at all and we're only making the opposing teams job easier when they read our scouting report. Not really testing them defensively if we're not going to implement anything different on offense are we?

The team defense has improved under Jay I'll give you that but offensively we're struggling more now than we did under Sam. Now I'm only saying that because your convinced Jay's a better option as a coach here Toronto than Sam was. I personally think its a bunch of rubbish, but who am I but apparently someone with a short memory.
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:58 PM   #107 (permalink)
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We live and die by the shot. Those 2 wins we won we were on our game with the shot especially beyond the 3 point line. Defense wasn't too shabby, but it was only Indiana and NJ who we beat. Certainly nothing to brag about. Since then, what has Jay done to change things? You'd think that eventhough we might not have the personnel to do so, we'd start changing things up a bit and drive more and more action in the post. Be a little less predictable. Be aggressive for heaven sakes.

Outside of the usual looks per game down low and drives to the hoop, have we really changed our mentally as being that jump shooting team that the league is already aware of us being? No, not at all and we're only making the opposing teams job easier when they read our scouting report. Not really testing them defensively if we're not going to implement anything different on offense are we?

The team defense has improved under Jay I'll give you that but offensively we're struggling more now than we did under Sam. Now I'm only saying that because your convinced Jay's a better option as a coach here Toronto than Sam was. I personally think its a bunch of rubbish, but who am I but apparently someone with a short memory.
Don't take offense Doc. My point is that we've looked ugly under Sam for a long while. Our shooting saved us in lots of past games too.

Go back and take a look at all of the opponents that we played since the start of Dec. Can you honestly say that you expected to win more than 4 of those games at best?
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:00 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Jeez, we were 500. last year, and .500 when Sam left, was it really that bad, or just bad to couch coaches that we seem to have that claimed that a new coach could make us what, a 700. team? Thats a joke, no coach could do anything with this roster that special, making the playoffs with this roster is special, and thats what Sam had been doing, thats what he had us on track to do again, BC and others just expected too much, plain n simple.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:02 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Don't take offense Doc. My point is that we've looked ugly under Sam for a long while. Our shooting saved us in lots of past games too.
Exactly, but what makes us different from the better teams in this league if our shot isn't falling then we have nothing to fall back on? The better teams in this league can mix things up on a consistent basis which causes team's defenses fits. We on the other hand are making their jobs alot easier when they know that 65 - 70% our offense is coming via a jumpshot or three pointer. No wonder why we get out-rebounded as much as we do. Team's lay-off us and place themselves accordingly for boards.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:04 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Exactly, but what makes us different from the better teams in this league if our shot isn't falling then we have nothing to fall back on? The better teams in this league can mix things up on a consistent basis which causes team's defenses fits. We on the other hand are making their jobs alot easier when they know that 65 - 70% our offense is coming via a jumpshot or three pointer. No wonder why we get out-rebounded as much as we do. Team's lay-off us and place themselves accordingly for boards.
In the words of a true basketball guru "we need to make more shats!!!"
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:04 PM   #111 (permalink)
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I've seen enough from guys like Moon, Joey & Kapono to know that they CAN be effective players. IMO they're not "D-league talent" as some have seemed to suggest. The proof will be in the pudding when they go to another team and look great.

Blaming Triano for not being able to get our team to go 10-0 over the last stretch is the height of lunacy lol. You can hail Sam as "teh jesus" all you want and tell me how he'll excel in his next coaching gig and probably win COTY again but the fact of the matter is that the guys tuned him out and didn't want to play for him anymore.

I also keep hearing this 2-9... 2-9.... 2-9..... nevermind the fact that in those 9 losses were:

- a last second loss to POR

- a close loss to NOH

- a 10-pt loss to the Spurs

All 3 of those games were against VERY good teams and the Raps played well for the most part. But of course, how the guys play doesn't matter if they don't win the game right?

Go back through these last 11 and count the number of games that we REALLY played terrible in. UTH, CLE, DAL, OKC. 3 of those games against powerful WC teams.

If each of our 9 losses had been of the DEN variety I could understand the Triano hate.... but that hasn't been the case.
More excuses and contradictions.


There are no asteriks besides those games. A loss os a loss...second place is first place for losers.

Moon looks horrible unless you enjoy watching him bite on every pumpfake and swat at every ball instead of playing good positional D and jack up shot after shot, Kapono is horrible with the exception of some nice passing, Joey was going good before Sam was fired.

Bargs looks worse, Bosh looks worse, Parker looks worse...

No one expected them to be 10-0, but they do the same shit over and over and this was supposed to be fixed with a new coach and a new system. The system makes the players...
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:48 PM   #112 (permalink)
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More excuses and contradictions.


There are no asteriks besides those games. A loss os a loss...second place is first place for losers.

Moon looks horrible unless you enjoy watching him bite on every pumpfake and swat at every ball instead of playing good positional D and jack up shot after shot, Kapono is horrible with the exception of some nice passing, Joey was going good before Sam was fired.

Bargs looks worse, Bosh looks worse, Parker looks worse...

No one expected them to be 10-0, but they do the same shit over and over and this was supposed to be fixed with a new coach and a new system. The system makes the players...
So looking at the teams that we've played since Dec. 2 how many of those did you expect us to win? lol... and how many games did you expect it to take for Triano to come in and change the way that we've played for 4 years?

You see what you want to see in Moon and Kapono. Both have had good games and bad games. So have Bosh & Jose.

guess that we'll just have to wait until we get our team full of all-stars to achieve any real success. I just hope that we don't pay more than 100K for a new coach in the off-season since apparently it's all about the players and not "the system".
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:50 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Toronto IS missing lots of shots.

Tonnes.

It's a hard pit to climb out of.

What was Miami's record the year BEFORE they won the trophy?



Next year!!!!!!!!1
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:26 PM   #114 (permalink)
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But Bosh has good teammates according to you. Don't you remember it was you who was convinced that it was Sam who made that made them look bad? Remeber that? Huh? We have a good team, but the coaching is making them look awful? So which one is it? Bosh has good teamates that aren't being used properly in a "system" that makes them look good and plays to their strenghts or he has no one to help him and is surrounded by scrubs? I expect your answer by 10:00am.
One doesn't necessarily exclude the other. The reality is that having a player like Lebron, Nash, Kidd or Kobe (and the list is longer) in a team, can make the rest of the team look better. However, even the best player in the world can be negated by a bad coach, or a inadequate system (see how barbosa has dropped under the new Phoenix philosophy).Bosh is a good player, but he doesn't make anybody better.

As for Sam, Graham and Kapono were non-existent under him, and they are giving good minutes lately. Kapono was definitely misutilized, all of Sam's apologists kept saying how it's Jose's fault that Kapono doesn't get shots, and under Triano he seems to be getting his fair share. And his defense doesn't look as bad (btw, when was the last time we got killed by a PG/SG under Triano, I don't think anybody has scored 30 points on us at that position since Jay took over)

This team is missing a few pieces, no question about it. On the other hand, calling our players scrubs is way too far. JO and Jose are quality starters, despite their weaknesses. Not all-stars, but above average at their position. Moon and Kapono are below average, but not in the bottom 5 or anything like that (again, at their position). So it's a slightly above average roster with an all-star in Bosh.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:32 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Jeez, we were 500. last year, and .500 when Sam left, was it really that bad, or just bad to couch coaches that we seem to have that claimed that a new coach could make us what, a 700. team? Thats a joke, no coach could do anything with this roster that special, making the playoffs with this roster is special, and thats what Sam had been doing, thats what he had us on track to do again, BC and others just expected too much, plain n simple.
A coach is supposed to make a team better than the sum of the parts. Looking at our roster, we are an average or slighty above average team. However, we were still losing with crucial mental mistakes, which you never see a team like SA do (like in th NJ game). Sam coached most of these players for 3-4 years. It's inexcusable to not have a strategy to inbound the ball out of a timeout. Secondly, we were getting blown out, 3 times or more already in 20 games. Again, inadmissable for a team trying to make the next step. There is no excuse for blowouts - only lack of effort can make an NBA team lose by 40 points.

The time has come for a new coach for this team - it was obvious that Sam has reached his potential. People now pick on Jay like he's supposed to transform this team or something. He's getting his chance, but save for miracle, he's not getting the job next season. That job is saved for somebody with a lot more experience I would think.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:36 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Look at Milwaukee for example. It was a team widely known for their horrible defense. They said Redd can't play defense, Ridnour in Seattle wasn't known for his defense either. They're playing a rookie at PF, and missed Bogut for a few games. Still, Skiles has managed to make that team play defense, and they're slowly climbing the rankings and establishing themselves as a defensive oriented team. That's what a good coach can do for you - make the team better than the roster composition.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:38 PM   #117 (permalink)
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A coach is supposed to make a team better than the sum of the parts. Looking at our roster, we are an average or slighty above average team. However, we were still losing with crucial mental mistakes, which you never see a team like SA do (like in th NJ game). Sam coached most of these players for 3-4 years. It's inexcusable to not have a strategy to inbound the ball out of a timeout. Secondly, we were getting blown out, 3 times or more already in 20 games. Again, inadmissable for a team trying to make the next step. There is no excuse for blowouts - only lack of effort can make an NBA team lose by 40 points.

The time has come for a new coach for this team - it was obvious that Sam has reached his potential. People now pick on Jay like he's supposed to transform this team or something. He's getting his chance, but save for miracle, he's not getting the job next season. That job is saved for somebody with a lot more experience I would think.
San Antonio tanked to last place and drafted Duncan before they became great, unless Bargs somehow becomes Duncan quality, the comparison on what they had to work with doesnt really work, i do think Pop is a better coach then Sam, obv, he may be the best coach in the league, but his GM did a MUCH better job drafting, trading, and signing FA's. I think you could bring Pop here from the beginning of the year, and we would still be a bottom 4 seed in the playoffs, about what i expected out of Sam.

If Sam really wore out his welcome, BC should have had the balls to do it in the offseason, or not sign an extension if it was so blatent he was such a piss poor coach, and dont give me that "his hands were tied because Sam won COY".... thats for pansys that follow the trend, if BC is such a basketball genius he would have showed us some balls and not inked Sam to an extension just because everybody thinks you should.
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