Post-Game Thread: Orlando Magic 104 - Toronto Raptors 96 - Page 4

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View Poll Results: Player of the Game
CB4 11 27.50%
Jack 2 5.00%
Amir 25 62.50%
Hedo 1 2.50%
Rasho 1 2.50%
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:18 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Expected.....
Hence why I beg people to stop calling himm Heir Apparent.

Good lord he's not even a shadow of vince.
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:28 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Amir Johnson was fucking awesome today when the refs finally let him stay in the game in the 2nd half, hes becoming my favorite Raptor on this team quickly.

Anyway, plain and simple we lost because we completely went away from our defensive gameplan vs their 2nd unit in the 4th which made absolutely no sense. Their big 3 went 17/49, and yet we lose because we became magnetized to the ball like we were in the 1st game vs ORL in the 4th qtr today and let JWill and Reddick beat us.

We played FANTASTIC help defence for the most part in the first 3 qtrs, though Boshs help D was lacking all night even though he played great man D on Howard until he got in foul trouble, then he let Howard get too deep.

Then in the 4th like I said, we overcommitted to the drive and collapsed to much on the penetrator and gave Williams those open 3s, and Reddick got 2 open shots off a simple rub down off a Gortat screen, and then the mid range shot off the dribble 2 times where Bosh didnt hedge well enough.

I find it amazing how we're the only team in the league thats let JJ Reddick kill us this year. We didnt lose to their big stars, we lost to their scrubs. Unreal. Theres no way a lineup where Pietrus is their best offensive player on the floor at the time at the start of the 4th should be able to score 13 pts in about 4 minutes, let alone score much at all. This team has no brain sometimes.

KNOW WHO YOURE PLAYING AGAINST. YOU WERE DOING SO WELL IN THE FIRST 3 QTRS.

And whats with the ACC not being sold out? For a game like this not to be sold out, its not good, not good at all. The crowd wasnt as into the game as my friends and I were until the very end of the game where it was extremely loud. The ACC has lost its edge. I have no voice, thats how it should be.

And I say it again, we need a quick penetrating guard at PG that can play some D. That or replace Bargnani with a defensive center. We're never going to win with this lineup in the long run and theyre all locked in long term unfortunately.
I agree for the most part, however, I think the problem yesterday was more collective. Our 1-2 guards are tiny, and can't do much with a good high screen, and Bosh/Bargnani are leterally horrible at defending the screen and roll. It confuses me as they claim to be a screen and roll team, how can you not defend your own expertise. Watching Carter and Reddick casually dribble left to right for open shots all night was painful.

I'm really starting to dislike Bargnani's awareness on the floor, he is lost.

Bosh, again, had what 2 fouls? 3 tops? In a game against a heated rival, and against his best buddy he manages to stay away from contact all night again?????

I tell you what, wanna know what Bosh is doing???? I'll tell ya.

Contract year.

Leaving toronto.

Wants to be on the floor as much as possible to increase stats. More points, more rebounds, yet aside from a few impressive tantrums.....er.....well one, where he took it at howard (once) Bosh was NOT part of the game, he was there, but he wasnt there.

I might not cry if we can turn him into two really good players.
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:53 AM   #63 (permalink)
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I remember the 2nd foul CB drew on Howard, he collected the offensive rebound and instead of dishing it to a wide open Bargnani who was standing unguarded in the key (about 5 or 6 feet from the basket) with his hands out, he went back in and got a call on akward layup move that just as easily could've benn a no call. I was pleased that he got the call, but remeber thinking there was a good chance Bargnani probably would've drawn a foul on him too since Howard was in the restricted area and then I thought...I hope he's not trying to pad his stats.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:13 AM   #64 (permalink)
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I remember the 2nd foul CB drew on Howard, he collected the offensive rebound and instead of dishing it to a wide open Bargnani who was standing unguarded in the key (about 5 or 6 feet from the basket) with his hands out, he went back in and got a call on akward layup move. I was pleased he got the call, but remeber thinking there was a good chance Bargnani probably would've drawn a foul on him too since Howard was in the restricted area and then I thought...I hope he's not trying to pad his stats.
It's kind of crazy that we're even hinting at that notion... but fuck, i've noticed this same thing a number of times this year and i asked myself the exact same question.

I've noticed a few occasions where he grabs the offensive board, and then tries to do something himself even though there's like 2-3 defenders infront of him and the basket and a couple of wide open raptor players.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:15 AM   #65 (permalink)
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I've noticed a few occasions where he grabs the offensive board, and then tries to do something himself even though there's like 2-3 defenders infront of him and the basket and a couple of wide open raptor players.
i think that's just experience telling him "if i pass this ball, one of these knuckleheads is just going to throw up a brick..." that's what happens when you come of age in the nba surrounded by weak teammates and the press telling you that you need to carry the team on your back.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:21 AM   #66 (permalink)
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i think that's just experience telling him "if i pass this ball, one of these knuckleheads is just going to throw up a brick..." that's what happens when you come of age in the nba surrounded by weak teammates and the press telling you that you need to carry the team on your back.
sorry, but the plays i'm talking about, it's more of a knucklehead move to attack the basket based on how many defenders were focussing on him.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:42 AM   #67 (permalink)
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i'm not disagreeing, but after several years of guys ruining the opportunities he gives them it's probably ingrained in his head that passing out of the post is a bad idea. he needs to learn to trust his teammates, but it's perfectly understandable why he doesn't.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:58 AM   #68 (permalink)
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I'm not sure if I buy that. Bosh has a team full of knock-down shooters that are going to stick open shots more often than not. After an offensive rebound, the defense is usually left scrambling and one guy, if not multiple guys, should be wide open for a shot on the kick-out. It doesn't take a significant amount of trust to dish the ball out for a wide open shot on a team full of shooters.

Bosh's tunnel vision from 15 feet in is extremely frustrating sometimes. There were numerous times yesterday where Bosh had Andrea and Jose open at the top and he missed them.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:58 AM   #69 (permalink)
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I think he's being agressive and it's a good thing. My beef is on defence. Lack of contact, no fouls...that sort of thing.

He's on a team that gets torched regularily, and he plays in the paint. How can he escape games with under 3 fouls????
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:03 PM   #70 (permalink)
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just goes to show statistics and numbers don't always paint the clearest pictures.

There are lots of instances where Bosh could be doing a better job in helping the team win.
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:07 PM   #71 (permalink)
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just goes to show statistics and numbers don't always paint the clearest pictures.

There are lots of instances where Bosh could be doing a better job in helping the team win.
Yeah, but at the same time he's working his ass off and needs more people around him to step up.

Last edited by jeffb; 11-23-2009 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:12 PM   #72 (permalink)
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whatever. Bosh not trusting his teammates to do their job is more often than not a bad thing.

For all that hard work he does (which i appreciate), it amounts to squat on numerous occasions.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:17 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Bosh, again, had what 2 fouls? 3 tops? In a game against a heated rival, and against his best buddy he manages to stay away from contact all night again?????

I tell you what, wanna know what Bosh is doing???? I'll tell ya.

Contract year.

Leaving toronto.

Wants to be on the floor as much as possible to increase stats. More points, more rebounds, yet aside from a few impressive tantrums.....er.....well one, where he took it at howard (once) Bosh was NOT part of the game, he was there, but he wasnt there.

I might not cry if we can turn him into two really good players.

Bosh played a great first quarter, I think he had 6 and 4 and got 2 fouls on Howard. Once Howard came back in though, Orlando swarmed him to keep Dwight out of foul trouble which was a great strategy especially because of our lack of shooting on the floor at the time that couldnt hurt them on kick outs(Jack+Weems). Jay didnt adjust to that and thats why we lost our 10 pt lead in the 2nd.

Bosh played some of the best defence on Howard Ive seen in the 1st half, as he went like 0/6 until he drew 2 fouls on Bosh, then it all went downhill.

Bosh wasnt pushing him out anymore, weary of the foul, and Howard got DEEP catches within 7 feet of the basket where he could just take 1 dribble and power up instead of having to post up 15 feet away and make a legit move to score. This caused fouls on other players as well as easy layups for Howard. Him hiting his FTs hurt us a lot too.

Once Bosh gets a couple of fouls and is weary of his 3rd in the 2nd qtr or 4th in the 3rd, his aggresssiveness on defence dies and we become the worst defensive team in the league. We need to find a way to fix this, because we cant just be giving up layups against his man to keep him out of foul trouble, nor have him be so tentative on screen rolls in not bumping the ball handler a bit.

You cant just show and go back vs shooters, because it doesnt give the guard enough time to get back to the ball handler. Thats why, as you said, JJ got a bunch of open looks off screen roll, as well as VC in the 2nd half where he went 7/14 instead of his dreadful 2/12 start.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:18 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Nobody ever makes Bosh look good. He never gets to take one play off without it being brutally obvious, why is that?? His mistakes don't ever go unnoticed. Why is that???

He's got a bad team around him. Simple as that.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:27 PM   #75 (permalink)
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that and he's only just good.

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Old 11-23-2009, 01:46 PM   #76 (permalink)
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sad, it was a winnable game, only if Jose could have hit his shots in the fourth.

Bad games from Barg, Jose, Derozan. It looks like Derozan is another mistake, unless we are again going to wait 3 yrs to let him develop. Hats off to Amir. Bosh was very impressive initially but when Orlando tightened their noose around him he disappeared. Thats what separate Bosh from likes of Kobe and Wade. He is already one notch up from last year, just need to go one notch more.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:50 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Nobody ever makes Bosh look good. He never gets to take one play off without it being brutally obvious, why is that?? His mistakes don't ever go unnoticed. Why is that???

He's got a bad team around him. Simple as that.
disagree.

It's not a bad team. At times we looked better than Orlando (and they're a very good team).

The Raps look worse than they are.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:53 PM   #78 (permalink)
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It looks like Derozan is another mistake, unless we are again going to wait 3 yrs to let him develop. Hats off to Amir. Bosh was very impressive initially but when Orlando tightened their noose around him he disappeared. Thats what separate Bosh from likes of Kobe and Wade. He is already one notch up from last year, just need to go one notch more.
You know he's only played one year of college right? perfect example of people having unrealistic expectations of him (maybe because he was thrust into the starting lineup? i don't know).

I feel the opposite actually, DD has shown that he will be a great player soon enough.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:12 PM   #79 (permalink)
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sad, it was a winnable game, only if Jose could have hit his shots in the fourth.

Bad games from Barg, Jose, Derozan. It looks like Derozan is another mistake, unless we are again going to wait 3 yrs to let him develop. Hats off to Amir. Bosh was very impressive initially but when Orlando tightened their noose around him he disappeared. Thats what separate Bosh from likes of Kobe and Wade. He is already one notch up from last year, just need to go one notch more.
wade/bron/melo are capable of doing that as they are guards, but Bosh is too big, less athletic so its pretty much impossible for him to shake doubles and triples.

regardless of how good he is, on a winning team, he should never be the 1st option, imo.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:14 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Nobody ever makes Bosh look good. He never gets to take one play off without it being brutally obvious, why is that?? His mistakes don't ever go unnoticed. Why is that???

He's got a bad team around him. Simple as that.
That's pretty much my feeling on the matter TBH.

That being said I can understand what SJ is saying.... it wouldn't kill Bosh to use those fouls (esp. in the 4th) when his team needs him. I was actually shocked to find myself looking at Bosh guarding D12 in the 1st half and doing a DAMN good job of keeping him in check 1-on-1. It was really impressive and if Bosh could do that on a pretty consistent basis he'd truly take the last step from star to superstar IMO.

Bosh really can't win though.... if he passes the ball out to his teammates he's "deferring too much" and "not being a franchise player".

If he looks to score the ball (and TBH he SHOULD look to score a lot more... he's taking the least shots out of any top scorer outside of CP3.. and shoots a good percentage) then he's bring "selfish".

If Bosh was shooting 39% then I could see the cause for concern... but when he's shooting 50% I have no problem with him putting pressure on the D. It's what ALL the great ones do.

As for Bosh's contract year.... I'm sure it's in his mind a bit.... but I also think that he WANTS to succeed in Toronto "being the man" rather than go somewhere else. If he wants the recognition like Wade, 'Melo and Bron have achieved then he has to do it with this team IMO.
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