pissed at decision making by staff !
Old 02-09-2012, 07:57 AM   #1 (permalink)
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i was about to respond in the LIN thread, but i get carry away the subject !

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Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
(carter) He's our 3rd string PG. Who cares, he filled a spot on a 1yr deal. This season is fucked anyway, does it really matter?

If we're complaing about our 3rd PG and a guy that plays every 4 games, we've got much bigger fish to fry.
let's be serious here two second :
if you are a coach and a GM, whom know their roster, then you know Bayless had some issue, and continue to have issue on his ankles. And you also know that caldy would have issue with the tough schedule.
so yes, i'm pissed, they don't think about that and bring here a 3rd pg, whom was out of shape in the beginning of the season.
Casey is trying to change the culture, i get that. but to do so, don't bring here a guy whom need to loss half his weigh during the season, to be in shape. i'm sure Carter as some quality, but come on, you try to build something. even with a low contract like his, you can find a younger guy, whom will want when he is call to play to please the coach and have a chance.
yes LIN would have be nice. because of his background too in fact.

they all said, it's a busness, but they do sometimes stupid decision.
Magloire is the only vet who provide us something in fact. (with gray)
buttler is out everything (except defense and even that !)

i'm sure the staff and the board will make moves, trades before the deadline, to build for the futur, but don't bring here vet whom are in their last season, and don't have work out during the lockout to maintain their shape.

against the bucks, Carter was chasing opponants pg, like a dog chase a rabbit, with no succes in cacthing him. so yes, LIn is just an example about what they should have done better job to checking out whom they sign.

another example was pietrus. they almost have him, and they decide it was to risky to take him with his knee.
3 weeks later he produce very well with boston. and we are stuck with buttler. they are both vet, but pietrus is a better defender, and a better scorer than buttler. the risk wasn't that much of a risk.

so yeah, i'm pissed of. not by the struggling of this team. that was and is expecting for a young team whom want to change the culture. but come on, choose better with whom you want to do that.
you can say, my example concern the 10th 14th spot on the roster, but we did all know the scedule will be tough, injury would come, so when you build the roster, you need to take all of that in consideration.
and i know, like you, that many solid bench player would want to go on better team, but not all of them.

after that, the coaching staff, continue to allow some player to shot 3. like buttler. especially buttler.

if you make player accuntable for their play, you need to take a time out, say to the guy, what you want or don't want, and if they don't do that, you put them out. even if you need to really tank a game to show them.

we all know they be some ups and down, no problem with that. but come on, some times they just need a good kickass for every body too.
struggles can happen, don't blame the faith. but when you ask player to attack the rim, if they don't do it, don't start them, or don't make play for them.

caldy is another example. DC should have bench him a long time ago, just to show him that him too was accuntable. you can't have a flow in offense, if you have a pg who keep the ball for 20secondes and dribble all the time.
if you watch the other 4 during the time he dribbles, you understand that caldy don't have a good and quick vison of the court. somethimes, you will find a guy whom is alone crossing the defense, and whom can attack, and no dish. but he will dish to a guy whom is lock in the corner. come on now.

did he really make them acountable, or does he talk just for talk sake ?

i preach patience, but for fans, not for the caoch or BC and ED. they really need to shut down the players.
they really need to say:
"stop saying thing on camera, and doing the opposite on the court. stop saying that will come. that should come every game. lose or win, whatever, but make effort every second you play."

how is this possible than a defender in transition can't run as quick as the guy he defend.

we are 27 games in the season. oh yeah we miss our star player. but come on. no excuse they say, so why the hell they continue to find excuse.

they really need to think out of the box. bring here alabi make him play. at least he will try as hard as Amir when he did struggles. then amir would have react quicker to put up his effort. don't wait 10 games to do something. after two games you put him in the inactive list. then he will really come back and want to play. and what is right for amir, is right for every player even DD.

they really need to understand that their money should be earn, it's not a due.
you don't show us what energy you have, you don't have game time. as simple as that. even if during some games, you have only 7-8 player to put on the court. make them learn what accountable means.

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Old 02-09-2012, 08:39 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Being held accountable is a personality trait and although it can be taught it takes a while it has a lot to do with the maturity of the player and these problems are expected on a team with many people arkund the age of 23. As well your frustration with the coaching and gm decisions are noted but youre no different than any other pissed off fan. What if lin was pursued but didnt wamt to come? There are a lit of things we fans dont know and not only are the players being given a new culture but so is the gm. Bc is not used to losing and neither id dc so benching jose our second most capabl player is not an option most of the time.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:55 AM   #3 (permalink)
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sometimes a vet's value isn't seen by the casual fan.... if you're not privy to the practices then it's difficult to truly assess Anthony Carter's impact on this team. For all we know, he's working well with Bayless on developing his game and understanding of the game..... you can't have all young players on this team or else they start to run the ship. How many Wizards and Kings coaches need to be fired to see this? Casey has gone on record saying 2 rookies a year is difficult to coach due to inconsistency and intangibles that have to constantly be instilled. Add in a couple second years and third years as well and it ends up taking away too much of the coach's time and effort... you have to have guys leading and teaching from within too. Going after Lin may have worked, but don't get irrational and begin to think that Lin would have taken time away from both Bayless and Jose to the point where he'd be putting up the same stats. We've seen talented players like Delfino, Bellinelli, Humphries get moved because they've fallen out of favour but the reality of it is that few are world beaters and some have brought back players in return. Look at a guy like Weems, who bounced out of Denver, Milwaukee and now Toronto, who was being heralded as better than Demar.... temper your expectations and you'll realize Lin is just another young player that could be a nice piece but is likely just another nice piece if he continues to grow and improve.

On a side note, Delfino would look really good here going forward in place of Amir given the fact that we have Ed Davis.....
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:43 AM   #4 (permalink)
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On a side note, Delfino would look really good here going forward in place of Amir given the fact that we have Ed Davis.....
The key word there is Ed Davis. Ed Davis is really tearing up out there in the court and deserves more minutes and responsibilty. Not!

Lets face it, this team was suppose to be stinking up this year for the 2012 draft. As other teams were shoring up their roster with good free agents, Raptors were picking up players like Anthony Carter, Butler, Gray, and Jamal Magloire. Add to the fact, Bargnani has missed more games than he will play, and their top pick from this year's draft is in Europe. We stink, but it is the right time to stink. Just ask the Indianapolis Colts.

Jeremy Lin is Tim Tebow. Their both back-up players. I'd rather be the Colts and stink up this year and get a player like Andrew Luck.

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Old 02-09-2012, 01:17 PM   #5 (permalink)
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The key word there is Ed Davis. Ed Davis is really tearing up out there in the court and deserves more minutes and responsibilty. Not!

Lets face it, this team was suppose to be stinking up this year for the 2012 draft. As other teams were shoring up their roster with good free agents, Raptors were picking up players like Anthony Carter, Butler, Gray, and Jamal Magloire. Add to the fact, Bargnani has missed more games than he will play, and their top pick from this year's draft is in Europe. We stink, but it is the right time to stink. Just ask the Indianapolis Colts.

Jeremy Lin is Tim Tebow. Their both back-up players. I'd rather be the Colts and stink up this year and get a player like Andrew Luck.
again, Delfino here would be awesome for one of Davis or Amir.... I see those guys as fairly interchangeable long term regardless of current year stats.
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:21 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I read an article today about the idea of amnestying Amir....
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:24 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I read an article today about the idea of amnestying Amir....
this one?

Amnestying Amir: Would you consider it?
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:26 PM   #8 (permalink)
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think so... I'd not heard his name mentioned with regard to that yet. Different way of looking at it
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
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danh's response in that thread is quiite interesting.
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:36 PM   #10 (permalink)
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danh's response in that thread is quiite interesting.
I think some might have underestimated LK, but at the same time, he's not going to be a star here either. As for Amir, he's a good fourth big, in that he can't really play with just anybody, but he is young, athletic, coachable, dedicated and grounded. He lacks size for an ideal third big, but he's a good fit on this team. He and Davis are the same player though.

As for amnestying him, I think it's premature as well. He'd be very much sought after by many teams willing to trade a wing for a big.
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:38 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Lin was in this discussion just an example. and for me, we should have gave him time in the summer league 2010, now it's too late.
Pietrus was another example.
i said example, because that the type of player we needed at the time.
in summer 2010, for lin, we were with jack and jose at the point, no futur pg in the team, and the staff don't search for a 3rd pg who can take over maybe one day.
we were already in need for a young pg, and what LIn show during the summer league was very positif.
in the case of pietrus, don't tell me it was not a mistake to pass on him caus' some knee injury, who quickly resolve.

I understand the fact that vet player with no much game time, are not here to provide during game, but more during practice and even more in the locker room. that's fine with me. but you need also somebody who can ste up when he need to play.
and if Casey prefer forbes at pg, instead of Carter most of the time, you know therr is a problem here.
that 's my opinion.

i'm not frustrated about the talent on this team, but on the effort. and casey seems to think the same. but can he do something about that, i think so. you can blame theplayer all you want, or say that the player aren't good enough.
but :
1. you build a system with what you have, not bas on theorie and impose it on the roster.
2. if you say you make player accountable for the msitake or lackof energy, do it.


let's see what we have on both nd of the floor :
bayless : scorer and solid defender on dynamic pg.
caldy : not so much a defender, and kep too much the ball for himself.
carter: not in shape.
DD : he shows some improvment on defense (even if he don't pressure enough his opponent) and inconsistent on offense.
Forbes : no use enough at sg to see what he is capable of.
barbosa : seems to me that he is more inconsistent than DD and can't read when defense close on him. he use too much his boldquickness.
JJ: he is the real pride of casey i suppose. you can see when he isn't on the floor the team don't comptete as much as when he is out there.
Kleiza : come back from injury, but he produce more and more on both end.
Buttler : don't need to talk trash about him.
Bargs: he had shown us want he will become with a coach whom push him.
ED : need more time to adapt at the system. inconsistent too.
Amir : he had some issue, but in the beginning of the season, he was good.
Gray: he does what casey ask to him. a very good point. more and more at ease with the system and his teammates.
Magz: the vet wwhom shows what must be gone.
alabi : why is he still on the roster, if you don't play him, exept when the game is done.

i concede that casey need more time to put the system on. and especially more practice. but during games, he need to kick some ass.
yesterday, for example, he yealled numerous time to attack during the game. how it's possible, that the guys on the floor didn't do that (except JJ and kleiza) don't tell if you are the coach, you don't do something to make them listen more !

but i can't say this team don't evolve.
they are more alrght in the first Q. (the last 3 or 4 games) but they don't really run the floor on transition. isn't it the offense casey prone ? an offens which don't settle on half court ?

like i said many times, it is not about the win/lose. it's about effort.
yesterday they spoke about profesionalism. whith all the money they are paid, you think they ca produce more energy than kiddengarden basketball.
and there is no rookie in this team this season, so that can't be an excuse, even if triano did not do a very good job before.

and talent wise, there isn't less talent on this team than in GSW, KINGS, NJN or wash, even CLeveland. so talent isn't a real problem here.
detroit wasn't a big talent team when they win, sure they had second tier player, whom play well together. so let's face it, the evaluation season sin't going anywhere, since last was already an evalution season.

Magz during the first game at home said:
" we will compete every game, put solid effort to please the fan" but until now, i don't see many ggame where they did that.
you can give all the excuses you want, you to find some things out of the box to motivate them. we all know they can compete with the best, when they want. (Miami, indiana*2)

maybe i'm too much frustrating now, because i can't understand why this team don't produce better with a defensiv coach than with an offensive coach. (with almost the same roster), and no more effort than last season.
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:41 PM   #12 (permalink)
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bankiz always bringing the effort... I like it, but got way too lazy to read all of that above post...

as for what I did read, about effort.... everybody wants to deal Barbosa, but he is one of three guys, JJ and AB being the other, that gives 100% every time he's been on the court this season.... to me, we'd be foolish to move him unless for a really good deal. I've watched this team look disinterested for far too many seasons.
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:51 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
bankiz always bringing the effort... I like it, but got way too lazy to read all of that above post...

as for what I did read, about effort.... everybody wants to deal Barbosa, but he is one of three guys, JJ and AB being the other, that gives 100% every time he's been on the court this season.... to me, we'd be foolish to move him unless for a really good deal. I've watched this team look disinterested for far too many seasons.
by 'giving 100%', do you mean keeping the ball 100% for himself?
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:53 PM   #14 (permalink)
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by 'giving 100%', do you mean keeping the ball 100% for himself?
well, I don't mean sitting in the corner waiting to jack a three like DD..... deny it if you want, Barbosa is always moving, always trying to do something...... I'll take that over our non-moving wings that we've had way too many of
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Old 02-09-2012, 02:39 PM   #15 (permalink)
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bankiz always bringing the effort... I like it
thanks, the effort are my principal concern for this team. as a fan, i want to see my team work his ass out and hustle more than want we have seen thislast two games. on both end of the floor.


Quote:
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as for what I did read, about effort.... everybody wants to deal Barbosa, but he is one of three guys, JJ and AB being the other, that gives 100% every time he's been on the court this season.... to me, we'd be foolish to move him unless for a really good deal. I've watched this team look disinterested for far too many seasons.
i will put Gray on the list of guys whom provide 100% every time they are on the floor.
i don't particulary want to trade barbosa, but he is our best trade asset on the market right now.
However, the real problem is a lack of movement on offense, especially moving without the ball. don't wait for the ball to come to you, make it happen.
in the bucks game, sometimes, you can see our 5 player in the 3pt line. how that's possible. we are not orlando, we don't have a dominant center who can grab all the rebounds on earth.
so i hope casey can do something about that. (maybe the video guy should be fired if not)

maybe i'm just tired watching a team whom put less efffort than a college team. what did they wait for to do so ? a messie ? because even if barg os good, he isn't the messie.
that a team sport, not a individual sport.

i was talking about that with my wife, and i said, we don't see tennins player (whom play all the year) complain about to much game. and they play 2h-4h games alone. They don't have possibility to rest and see their coach say to them; you can rest, tomorrow there is another game. no they go out there and compete to win every game. (not only the best, but every player who want to win something)

so yes, maybe there are tired (nba player), but come on, they are the sportplayer who win the most money, game time wise. how about some respect for the fan whom put money to pay their salaries !

that is what pissed me off. and the fact that i'm up at 1am until 4am to see them do nothing good. (maybe what 1/3 of the games). the problem is, if i don't get up to see them, i don't see them at all. so guys shows us some respect, and eran your money.
that is point for coaching staff and board too.

maybe the main question is : wht is the main motivation for those guy to play in NBA ? the money ? or the fact to play gainst the best, and show the best that they can compete ?

because for now, and the last years/seasons, i didn't see that in Toronto.
that put me to think, Bosh did great when he decide to go else where, and find a team who really want to win.

the rganisation should understand that well, especially on the busness side. you want to continue to exist, make good decision on the roster, and the coaching staff.


when they negociate the new CBA, owner should had put on the table, a ratio effort on pay day. ýmaybe more player, would provide effort every game !
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Old 02-09-2012, 02:45 PM   #16 (permalink)
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and when i spoke about effort, i don't only spoke about physical effort.

it's an overall effort.
i 'm piss when i heard some player said thing like that:
"not a big deal when we struggles"
"not a big deak to lose against great team"
"we should forget about this game, and think about the next"
"we will not compete this season, but in 3 or 4 years we will be able to win a chiamponship"


that can't put anybody in the right mindset to go out and make more effort to win or even be carefull in the game.
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Old 02-09-2012, 03:45 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bankiz View Post
Lin was in this discussion just an example. and for me, we should have gave him time in the summer league 2010, now it's too late.
Pietrus was another example.
i said example, because that the type of player we needed at the time.
in summer 2010, for lin, we were with jack and jose at the point, no futur pg in the team, and the staff don't search for a 3rd pg who can take over maybe one day.
we were already in need for a young pg, and what LIn show during the summer league was very positif.
in the case of pietrus, don't tell me it was not a mistake to pass on him caus' some knee injury, who quickly resolve.

I understand the fact that vet player with no much game time, are not here to provide during game, but more during practice and even more in the locker room. that's fine with me. but you need also somebody who can ste up when he need to play.
and if Casey prefer forbes at pg, instead of Carter most of the time, you know therr is a problem here.
that 's my opinion.

i'm not frustrated about the talent on this team, but on the effort. and casey seems to think the same. but can he do something about that, i think so. you can blame theplayer all you want, or say that the player aren't good enough.
but :
1. you build a system with what you have, not bas on theorie and impose it on the roster.
2. if you say you make player accountable for the msitake or lackof energy, do it.


let's see what we have on both nd of the floor :
bayless : scorer and solid defender on dynamic pg.
caldy : not so much a defender, and kep too much the ball for himself.
carter: not in shape.
DD : he shows some improvment on defense (even if he don't pressure enough his opponent) and inconsistent on offense.
Forbes : no use enough at sg to see what he is capable of.
barbosa : seems to me that he is more inconsistent than DD and can't read when defense close on him. he use too much his boldquickness.
JJ: he is the real pride of casey i suppose. you can see when he isn't on the floor the team don't comptete as much as when he is out there.
Kleiza : come back from injury, but he produce more and more on both end.
Buttler : don't need to talk trash about him.
Bargs: he had shown us want he will become with a coach whom push him.
ED : need more time to adapt at the system. inconsistent too.
Amir : he had some issue, but in the beginning of the season, he was good.
Gray: he does what casey ask to him. a very good point. more and more at ease with the system and his teammates.
Magz: the vet wwhom shows what must be gone.
alabi : why is he still on the roster, if you don't play him, exept when the game is done.

i concede that casey need more time to put the system on. and especially more practice. but during games, he need to kick some ass.
yesterday, for example, he yealled numerous time to attack during the game. how it's possible, that the guys on the floor didn't do that (except JJ and kleiza) don't tell if you are the coach, you don't do something to make them listen more !

but i can't say this team don't evolve.
they are more alrght in the first Q. (the last 3 or 4 games) but they don't really run the floor on transition. isn't it the offense casey prone ? an offens which don't settle on half court ?

like i said many times, it is not about the win/lose. it's about effort.
yesterday they spoke about profesionalism. whith all the money they are paid, you think they ca produce more energy than kiddengarden basketball.
and there is no rookie in this team this season, so that can't be an excuse, even if triano did not do a very good job before.

and talent wise, there isn't less talent on this team than in GSW, KINGS, NJN or wash, even CLeveland.
so talent isn't a real problem here.
detroit wasn't a big talent team when they win, sure they had second tier player, whom play well together. so let's face it, the evaluation season sin't going anywhere, since last was already an evalution season.

Magz during the first game at home said:
" we will compete every game, put solid effort to please the fan" but until now, i don't see many ggame where they did that.
you can give all the excuses you want, you to find some things out of the box to motivate them. we all know they can compete with the best, when they want. (Miami, indiana*2)

maybe i'm too much frustrating now, because i can't understand why this team don't produce better with a defensiv coach than with an offensive coach. (with almost the same roster), and no more effort than last season.
sorry bankiz, but as most fans, you're wanting to win is blurring your vision a bit here. The raps, without bargnani, have, imo the least talent in the league. With bargnani, we are maybe 24-26 in talent. I'm basing this on records with and without Bargnani and i'm working off the top of my head, don't quote me on the number. But, getting back to the point, if you have the least talent in the league on your roster for most of the season, how many wins can you really expect? Effort and a good coach can only take you so far and imo DC has done a great job. We're something like 16 in deffensive efficiancy with if i remember correctly 100.1 points allowed/100 possesions, a massive improvement form last year without really any additions. The fact that we have the fifth worst record, and not even near the worse speaks wonders for what DC has been able to do barring all the injuries, change in mentality, and a lack of veteran talent. It's going to be a tough year, we all knew that, but what helps me is looking to the future and hoping.
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:57 PM   #18 (permalink)
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tldr original post OP quoted is correct
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