The Official RF Trade Proposal Thread - Page 260
Old 12-03-2013, 07:30 PM   #5181 (permalink)
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He's coming off the bench for the same reason Harden was coming off the bench in Oklahoma behind Sefolosha. He would be underused otherwise. Beverley is a nice role player who fits well next to Harden with tenacious defense and a solid spot up shot. But Lin is the better player and he's having a brilliant season so far.
Lin is better offensively than Beverly but no where near the defensive level - I completely agree with your summation however Lin is not Harden and OKC fk'd that up moving forward (but then who knew what Harden was really capable of - no one had a clue - and with the type of stats Harden had at the time in OKC he should have been coming off the bench). Beverly and Lin are both circling the rim of fringe starters on good teams, back-ups on great teams and starters for shitty teams - so is KL and Dragic imo. Lowry, Lawson, Lin, Dragic - all to me are just lateral moves now. It would be nice if the Raptors actually HAD a good young PG prospect to pair and grow with JV.

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Old 12-03-2013, 07:56 PM   #5182 (permalink)
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Lawson is a soon to be All Star, I think. Lin is clearly a top 5 player on a legit contender, so he's obviously more than a fringe starter on a good-but-not-great team.
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Old 12-03-2013, 08:29 PM   #5183 (permalink)
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Lin is better offensively than Beverly but no where near the defensive level - I completely agree with your summation however Lin is not Harden and OKC fk'd that up moving forward (but then who knew what Harden was really capable of - no one had a clue - and with the type of stats Harden had at the time in OKC he should have been coming off the bench). Beverly and Lin are both circling the rim of fringe starters on good teams, back-ups on great teams and starters for shitty teams - so is KL and Dragic imo. Lowry, Lawson, Lin, Dragic - all to me are just lateral moves now. It would be nice if the Raptors actually HAD a good young PG prospect to pair and grow with JV.
Incorrect, iirc he was shooting something like a 65% TS that last year and played better when one of Durant or Westbrook were on.
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Old 12-03-2013, 09:00 PM   #5184 (permalink)
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Incorrect, iirc he was shooting something like a 65% TS that last year and played better when one of Durant or Westbrook were on.
Key to that statement was when one of Durant or Westbrook was on the floor. Most success he had was attributed to them , there was a reason he wanted to go. He would never be the guy on that team, never had the chance to nor was given the level of credit he should have. And honestly, I know he was damn good in his last year but not what he became and what I remember in his last year was him choking in the playoffs - and badly.

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Lawson is a soon to be All Star, I think. Lin is clearly a top 5 player on a legit contender, so he's obviously more than a fringe starter on a good-but-not-great team.
As for Lawson being an all star, meh, not with the level of talented guards coming in this year or in their 2nd year IMO. Lawson will be considered but then people have said that about Lowry and about Lin and about Dragic.

Out of the West I would take Burke, Rubio or Lillard before Lawson/Lin/Dragic not to mention Paul, Westbrook, Parker or Curry. Those 4 (with Lowry) are where they were at the start of the season - a fight for spots between 12-16 with occasional spurts to spots in the 9-11 range. Sadly, those 4 seem to not be able to maintain a top 10 spot, their respective bodies seem to break down when they try.

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Old 12-03-2013, 09:31 PM   #5185 (permalink)
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I don't know what he sucks, but as a basketball player he's doing very well. His shot is improved, and his current role suits him very well. I'd take him at 8 mil per. If he was on the Raptors, people would be calling him an All Star right now.

Lowry/DeMar/Ross/Horford/Jonas with Lin as the 6th man looks like a 50 wins team. Of course, that deal is way past unrealistic, but that's beside the point.
The only thing that is comparable to allstar is going to be his salary, nearly 15 mil next year. I would not take him over Lowry and I don't see too many people calling Lowry an allstar.
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Old 12-04-2013, 02:00 AM   #5186 (permalink)
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Bored so: Rondo and Bogans (or Brooks) for KL and DD.
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:16 AM   #5187 (permalink)
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The only thing that is comparable to allstar is going to be his salary, nearly 15 mil next year. I would not take him over Lowry and I don't see too many people calling Lowry an allstar.
His salary is 8.3ish mil a year for cap purposes.

My point re All Star wasn't about whether or not he was an actual All Star. He's not. I meant that people on this forum tend to be "a little" slow when it comes to acknowledging improvement from non-Raptors players, and I think this is the case here. We had people saying that Rudy Gay is better than Paul George, Ross better than Drummond or Amir Johnson is equal to Al Horford. Lin is playing extremely well this year. He's one of the best 6th men in the league right now, and his cap hit looks very reasonable. So someone comes up with a "Gay+pick for Horford+Lin" idea, and the response is "would rather not have Lin?" So I end up asking why, because not only Lin is the 2nd most valuable player in that deal at this point (i.e. more so than Gay), but he'd make a ton of sense for the Raptors in that situation too.
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:22 AM   #5188 (permalink)
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His salary is 8.3ish mil a year for cap purposes.

My point re All Star wasn't about whether or not he was an actual All Star. He's not. I meant that people on this forum tend to be "a little" slow when it comes to acknowledging improvement from non-Raptors players, and I think this is the case here. We had people saying that Rudy Gay is better than Paul George, Ross better than Drummond or Amir Johnson is equal to Al Horford. Lin is playing extremely well this year. He's one of the best 6th men in the league right now, and his cap hit looks very reasonable. So someone comes up with a "Gay+pick for Horford+Lin" idea, and the response is "would rather not have Lin?" So I end up asking why, because not only Lin is the 2nd most valuable player in that deal at this point (i.e. more so than Gay), but he'd make a ton of sense for the Raptors in that situation too.
Well said.
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:22 AM   #5189 (permalink)
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Key to that statement was when one of Durant or Westbrook was on the floor. Most success he had was attributed to them , there was a reason he wanted to go. He would never be the guy on that team, never had the chance to nor was given the level of credit he should have. And honestly, I know he was damn good in his last year but not what he became and what I remember in his last year was him choking in the playoffs - and badly.



As for Lawson being an all star, meh, not with the level of talented guards coming in this year or in their 2nd year IMO. Lawson will be considered but then people have said that about Lowry and about Lin and about Dragic.

Out of the West I would take Burke, Rubio or Lillard before Lawson/Lin/Dragic not to mention Paul, Westbrook, Parker or Curry. Those 4 (with Lowry) are where they were at the start of the season - a fight for spots between 12-16 with occasional spurts to spots in the 9-11 range. Sadly, those 4 seem to not be able to maintain a top 10 spot, their respective bodies seem to break down when they try.
20-8-4, good efficiency, the best player on a team that just won 7 in a row.
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:29 AM   #5190 (permalink)
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His salary is 8.3ish mil a year for cap purposes.

My point re All Star wasn't about whether or not he was an actual All Star. He's not. I meant that people on this forum tend to be "a little" slow when it comes to acknowledging improvement from non-Raptors players, and I think this is the case here. We had people saying that Rudy Gay is better than Paul George, Ross better than Drummond or Amir Johnson is equal to Al Horford. Lin is playing extremely well this year. He's one of the best 6th men in the league right now, and his cap hit looks very reasonable. So someone comes up with a "Gay+pick for Horford+Lin" idea, and the response is "would rather not have Lin?" So I end up asking why, because not only Lin is the 2nd most valuable player in that deal at this point (i.e. more so than Gay), but he'd make a ton of sense for the Raptors in that situation too.
If by cap purposes you mean his hit is going to be 8.3 next year than it's acceptable. But if it's 15mil than he has a toxic contract.
And I am not talking about a trade as a whole that seems slightly wacky, I responded to ''why wouldn't you want Lin'' (or at least I thought so)
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:32 AM   #5191 (permalink)
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Well said.
don't mean to sound like asshole but can you please stop sucking up, it's getting lame as hell..
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:17 AM   #5192 (permalink)
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If by cap purposes you mean his hit is going to be 8.3 next year than it's acceptable. But if it's 15mil than he has a toxic contract.
And I am not talking about a trade as a whole that seems slightly wacky, I responded to ''why wouldn't you want Lin'' (or at least I thought so)
Well yes, why wouldn't the Raptors want Lin? If a team is tanking, then sure, no point in getting anyone good. But we were talking about a scenario where the team is trying to win and improve, so then why wouldn't you want a very good 6th man. The only reason I can think of is that Lowry's psyche might collapse again, since Lin is playing better right now.

(re salary - his salary hit is 8.3ish mil for cap, tax, trade purposes, his actual salary in his bank account is near 15 mil)
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Old 12-04-2013, 10:15 AM   #5193 (permalink)
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20-8-4, good efficiency, the best player on a team that just won 7 in a row.
Like I said above, these guys have their spurts and it helps that Harden was out - a "Lin-type" pg would just be a lateral move imo when we should continue the tank that MU is doing....

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Well yes, why wouldn't the Raptors want Lin? If a team is tanking, then sure, no point in getting anyone good. But we were talking about a scenario where the team is trying to win and improve, so then why wouldn't you want a very good 6th man. The only reason I can think of is that Lowry's psyche might collapse again, since Lin is playing better right now.

(re salary - his salary hit is 8.3ish mil for cap, tax, trade purposes, his actual salary in his bank account is near 15 mil)
Maybe MU is a better evaluator than even I thought....seems to me all MU has to do to tank is -wait for it - NOTHING

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Old 12-04-2013, 12:40 PM   #5194 (permalink)
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Like I said above, these guys have their spurts and it helps that Harden was out - a "Lin-type" pg would just be a lateral move imo when we should continue the tank that MU is doing....
Well, if all this time you wanted to say that you don't want Lawson or Lin because this team needs a tank, then you have to try to be much much clearer.

Your posts read as if you were saying that Lawson and Lowry are comparable players right now, or that Lin is bad value (i.e. you wouldn't want him even if this team got an All Star like Horford and tried to win now).

If you are saying that this team needs a tank, I agree. Although obviously if Lawson was available, I'd have to think twice. The way he's playing right now, he'd be the top guard in the East and he's just entering his prime. But he won't be available.
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Old 12-04-2013, 12:43 PM   #5195 (permalink)
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zqpn trade machine

BOS get Deng + Ross + Rivers + 1st Chicago 2014 + 1st Cha 2014 (CHI) + 1st NYK 2016
CHI get Lowry + Gordon
NOP get Gay + Rondo
TOR get Holliday + Green + Hinrich + Lee






Holliday/Hinrich
DD/Lee/Fields
Green/Novak
AJ/TH/Acy
JV/Gray

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Old 12-04-2013, 01:07 PM   #5196 (permalink)
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zqpn trade machine

BOS get Deng + Ross + Rivers + 1st Chicago 2014 + 1st Cha 2014 (CHI) + 1st NYK 2016
CHI get Lowry + Gordon
NOP get Gay + Rondo
TOR get Holliday + Green + Hinrich + Lee






Holliday/Hinrich
DD/Lee/Fields
Green/Novak
AJ/TH/Acy
JV/Gray
This is pretty good don't know if some of the teams would want to give away those picks, but it seems pretty fair.
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Old 12-04-2013, 01:32 PM   #5197 (permalink)
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zqpn trade machine

BOS get Deng + Ross + Rivers + 1st Chicago 2014 + 1st Cha 2014 (CHI) + 1st NYK 2016
CHI get Lowry + Gordon
NOP get Gay + Rondo
TOR get Holliday + Green + Hinrich + Lee


Holliday/Hinrich
DD/Lee/Fields
Green/Novak
AJ/TH/Acy
JV/Gray
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This is pretty good don't know if some of the teams would want to give away those picks, but it seems pretty fair.
I really think CHI can give deng + Hinrich + their late first + a futur charlotte first for gordon + lowry.
for them :
Lowry/teague/Rose
Gordon/snell
Buttler/Dunleavy
Boozer/Gibson
Noah

they don't lose on defense, but gain scoring. gordon is a longterm project to pair with rose at sg.


NOP upgrade their team :
Rondo-Evans-Gay-Anderson-Davis

Boston get flexibility (deng expiring), young asset (rookie contract) and somes 1st picks.

TOR give 1st NYK 2016 + gay + lowry + ross for Holliday + Green + Lee + Hinrich.
we lose on flexibility. but we gain on athletic and consistancy and yougth.
a more watchable team on paper
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Old 12-04-2013, 06:27 PM   #5198 (permalink)
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Well, if all this time you wanted to say that you don't want Lawson or Lin because this team needs a tank, then you have to try to be much much clearer.

Your posts read as if you were saying that Lawson and Lowry are comparable players right now, or that Lin is bad value (i.e. you wouldn't want him even if this team got an All Star like Horford and tried to win now).

If you are saying that this team needs a tank, I agree. Although obviously if Lawson was available, I'd have to think twice. The way he's playing right now, he'd be the top guard in the East and he's just entering his prime. But he won't be available.
Well to clearer than the clear I've been, Lawson/Lin/Lowry/Dragic are all comparable- all have their strengths and all have their weaknesses. I'd look pretty damn efficient like Lin as well if the best player was out hurt and I get to pass the rock to D12 and Parsons all game. All these players will be perpetually stuck in the 12-16 range; all will have spurts of 'all-stardom', all will continue to get injured and all will just be good to above good in the long run, 1 or 2 may even make an all-star game in their careers. And still no, I definitely would not want Lin and no, I definitely don't want Lawson. I'd rather not get into 'what-ifs' like getting a 'Horford' caliber player - not even realistic.

As for Lawson making an all-star game....well, like I stated above he would have to be voted in over Westbrook, Paul, Parker, Curry, Lillard, Rubio.



In the end the only one smiling on this forum is Toby - and he should be. To have a pg like Lillard to quarterback his team? Again, THAT's the type of pg we should be targeting.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:39 AM   #5199 (permalink)
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clearer than the clear I've been
Well, you know what I mean. Or not. There was a Bankiz post about getting Lin in addition to Lowry, as well as adding an All Star and winning. You replied simply that you don't want Lin. But it turns out that you meant you don't want Lin instead of Lowry, on the current roster, because you prefer to tank. It's a completely different situation. It's one thing to say that a Player X is not good enough to turn the Raptors around by himself, and another to say that he's so flawed that you don't want him, period, under circumstances described by Bankiz. Now you say that you don't care about 'what ifs' and that it should've been clear to me, but I'm not a mind reader.
Anyway, this isn't a big deal at all, I just didn't want to leave this on the wrong foot where you seem to be thinking that I'm making shit up in order to nag you.

Back to the Lawson subject, I think at some point we have to accept that maybe the player is simply entering his prime. He's been playing this well since January 2013 or so. He's outplaying most of the players mentioned in your post. It's hard to predict if he'll be an All Star this year or not because it's such a popularity contest, but I'd select him right now.
Could he get injured? Well of course. But I don't see a good enough basis to declare him injury prone.

As for Lowry, he was borderline All Star caliber. It wasn't a fluke or an up of a normal up and down cycle. He just lost it, and it's a combination of not trying as much defensively, overgambling, character issues and some health problems. Those are simple noticeable issues that make him worse than he was a few years ago.

When it comes to Lin, play around with this site: nbawowy!
I'd give exact links but the site doesn't work that way. What you say about Lin being a product of playing with Dwight and Parsons is simply not true, he's scoring 20pts per 36 on Harden-like efficiency when those two are off the floor. Now, his numbers are better without Harden, sure, but that's not much of a criticism, is it? The guy scores a ton of points very efficiently when given opportunities? That seems a good thing. I know of a few Raptors who could improve in that area.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:55 AM   #5200 (permalink)
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Well, you know what I mean. Or not. There was a Bankiz post about getting Lin in addition to Lowry, as well as adding an All Star and winning. You replied simply that you don't want Lin. But it turns out that you meant you don't want Lin instead of Lowry, on the current roster, because you prefer to tank. It's a completely different situation. It's one thing to say that a Player X is not good enough to turn the Raptors around by himself, and another to say that he's so flawed that you don't want him, period, under circumstances described by Bankiz. Now you say that you don't care about 'what ifs' and that it should've been clear to me, but I'm not a mind reader.
Anyway, this isn't a big deal at all, I just didn't want to leave this on the wrong foot where you seem to be thinking that I'm making shit up in order to nag you.

Back to the Lawson subject, I think at some point we have to accept that maybe the player is simply entering his prime. He's been playing this well since January 2013 or so. He's outplaying most of the players mentioned in your post. It's hard to predict if he'll be an All Star this year or not because it's such a popularity contest, but I'd select him right now.
Could he get injured? Well of course. But I don't see a good enough basis to declare him injury prone.

As for Lowry, he was borderline All Star caliber. It wasn't a fluke or an up of a normal up and down cycle. He just lost it, and it's a combination of not trying as much defensively, overgambling, character issues and some health problems. Those are simple noticeable issues that make him worse than he was a few years ago.

When it comes to Lin, play around with this site: nbawowy!
I'd give exact links but the site doesn't work that way. What you say about Lin being a product of playing with Dwight and Parsons is simply not true, he's scoring 20pts per 36 on Harden-like efficiency when those two are off the floor. Now, his numbers are better without Harden, sure, but that's not much of a criticism, is it? The guy scores a ton of points very efficiently when given opportunities? That seems a good thing. I know of a few Raptors who could improve in that area.
True that - like all of them

I will check into Lin though, he was horribly inefficient in NY and the first while in Houston. I actually liked the idea of Lin here over KL - preferred really - figured he'd grow and settle down. Maybe I'm just assuming he's still that way.
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