Official: Raps sign DeRozan to a 4 year extension - Page 9
Old 11-02-2012, 12:52 PM   #161 (permalink)
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and jrue holiday was signed to wat, 46 million so.. 11.5 million a year? Is jrue worth that much while Derozan isn't? really?

Some members of this forum need to chill. with the market inflation happening recently, the average NBA player after a rookie contract makes around 5-6 million a year. and..... Derozan is more than an average player. If you say he isn't, well...... i'll say this much. The average SG in the NBA doesn't score 16 a game
This actually supports Torap's idea of trading guys for younger, cheaper options instead of loading up on these contracts.
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:56 PM   #162 (permalink)
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Don't start the Amir vs ED debate.
Not meant to start a debate, but overpaying a vet like Amir when you have a young guy playing the same position is silly.
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:57 PM   #163 (permalink)
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This actually supports Torap's idea of trading guys for younger, cheaper options instead of loading up on these contracts.
Holiday isn't worth that contract either and both are overpaid, I'd say. In retrospect, it actually supports Colangelo's assertions that you need to overpay a bit in this NBA environment.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:00 PM   #164 (permalink)
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Holiday isn't worth that contract either and both are overpaid, I'd say. In retrospect, it actually supports Colangelo's assertions that you need to overpay a bit in this NBA environment.
I don't know... there was a lot of cheap talent available given the amnesty provision.... and overpaying Fields when a better, more talented player signs for much less.... say Delfino, Barbosa, Terry, etc.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:04 PM   #165 (permalink)
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I don't know... there was a lot of cheap talent available given the amnesty provision.... and overpaying Fields when a better, more talented player signs for much less.... say Delfino, Barbosa, Terry, etc.
Yeah, but those guys actually have to want to come here. Also, going after Nash should've never ever ever been a priority of this team.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:05 PM   #166 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pzabby View Post
and jrue holiday was signed to wat, 46 million so.. 11.5 million a year? Is jrue worth that much while Derozan isn't? really?

Some members of this forum need to chill. with the market inflation happening recently, the average NBA player after a rookie contract makes around 5-6 million a year. and..... Derozan is more than an average player. If you say he isn't, well...... i'll say this much. The average SG in the NBA doesn't score 16 a game
Stop dropping this bs justification of market inflation. We have direct comparisons to players that have shown some things but have a lot to prove. Those players are Tyreke Evans and Brandon Jennings. Guess what their teams did? Let them have another season to prove their worth and then use their built in advantage of RFA to make a decision. Quite honestly I think both of those guys are a bigger risk of large FA offers than Derozan if they show growth.

Griffin, Harden, Curry and yes, Holiday have all shown more and got rewarded. The path we took makes no sense outside of the fact we wanted to keep D happy.

You're damn right the average SG, given Derozan's role, averages in the mid-teens. Many of them also know how to rebound, play D or pass as well.

I'm all for guys that work hard and are good teammates, just not at above market price. Especially when you have RFA security later on.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:08 PM   #167 (permalink)
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Stop dropping this bs justification of market inflation. We have direct comparisons to players that have shown some things but have a lot to prove. Those players are Tyreke Evans and Brandon Jennings. Guess what their teams did? Let them have another season to prove their worth and then use their built in advantage of RFA to make a decision. Quite honestly I think both of those guys are a bigger risk of large FA offers than Derozan if they show growth.

Griffin, Harden, Curry and yes, Holiday have all shown more and got rewarded. The path we took makes no sense outside of the fact we wanted to keep D happy.

You're damn right the average SG, given Derozan's role, averages in the mid-teens. Many of them also know how to rebound, play D or pass as well.

I'm all for guys that work hard and are good teammates, just not at above market price. Especially when you have RFA security later on.
Well said, especially the last two points.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:16 PM   #168 (permalink)
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Tyreke Evans and Brandon Jennings both have a stigma of selfishness and broken play whereas Derozan does not.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:18 PM   #169 (permalink)
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Tyreke Evans and Brandon Jennings both have a stigma of selfishness and broken play whereas Derozan does not.
Agreed 100%. The flipside is they've shown much more in their game talent wise. Do you think the Kings would take Derozan for Tyreke? I do not.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:20 PM   #170 (permalink)
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Agreed 100%. The flipside is they've shown much more in their game talent wise. Do you think the Kings would take Derozan for Tyreke? I do not.
Jennings is like the DD of PGs. Anywho, it's not impossible, SAK has used Tyreke as a SF.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:53 PM   #171 (permalink)
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i haven't read the thread thoroughly—sorry if this has already been discussed...

...i read BC discussing the extension (think it was the Sun) and one of the things he touched on/stressed was "information [he is] privy to".

that could mean a lot of things, earlier inquiries from teams, discussions with his agent, and others. It may also refer to previous trade talks involving a team (or teams) that have interest but want/require/demand contract certainly, including a guarantee that Demar can't walk or wouldn't just play out his QO. if something like this is the case, BC would have done his due diligence on acceptable $$$.

chances of that being the case? 5%? less?

for what it's worth, even with the poison pill provision such an extension creates, a deal such as demar and jose for rudy gay passes the trade checker.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:59 PM   #172 (permalink)
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another thing—
the contract could actually turn out to be a good one if demar can just learn to dribble, pass, shoot, and defend. (maybe he can one day be as good as alan anderson)
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Old 11-03-2012, 03:53 AM   #173 (permalink)
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What some individuals have to say about this extraordinarily awesome move by BC

"Zach Lowe:


But as many NBA executives have told me, it takes only one sucker/asshole/fool to blow up a player’s market value. The Mavericks, Cavaliers, Pistons, Bucks, Magic, and Kings are just a few of the teams that could have major cap room and holes at the wing if things break in a particular direction, and though not all of those teams are going to like DeRozan, it takes only one.
All of this was at work in Toronto’s decision to grant DeRozan an absurd extension, worth nearly $40 million over four years, that will put them over the cap this summer and take them out of the max-level cap derby in the summer of 2014. The trope is that “advanced statistics” frown on DeRozan, but the truth is that very few statistics of any kind paint him as a productive player. He’s a low-percentage shooter who can’t shoot 3s, and thus can’t space the floor on the wing. He has never shown even average creativity or timing as a passer, and Dwane Casey cut down on DeRozan’s pick-and-roll usage as soon as he got the Raptors head-coaching job. He’s a minus defender both on the ball (opponents shot better than 50 percent on isolation attempts last season, according to Synergy Sports) and not a particularly attentive helper off it. He’s only 23, but DeRozan has never had a league-average PER, and the chances he lives up to this deal are slim.
[...]
There is an alternative path here: See how DeRozan performs this year, and if he’s shaky again with Terrence Ross waiting for more playing time, just let the guy walk and watch another sucker overpay.

http://www.grantland...tension-edition


Adam Francis (of RaptorsHQ):


At face value, there's no way to argue that this contract makes sense.
[...]
With DeRozan we're not only hoping for consistency, but that suddenly we'll see the ability to do, you know, what top-flight shooting guards do! Colangelo loves noting that at only 23, DeRozan has tons of time to make that leap, but forget his age, almost all stud shooting guards, from Kobe to Harden to hell, Richard Hamilton, perhaps DeMar's upside, show signs of the leap before year four. Hamilton was dropping in an efficient 20 a game with a PER of nearly 17 in year three.

http://www.raptorshq...tract-extension


Rob Mahoney:


But between DeRozan and the recently signed Landry Fields, Toronto now has roughly $16 million annually committed to an unproven wing core through 2015. Factor in the far more affordable (and honestly, far more promising) Terrence Ross, and it’s hard to see what purpose DeRozan serves. This is a rebuilding team that has voluntarily hamstrung its own construction efforts, and though that’s hardly the fault of DeRozan alone, his deal brings the Raptors that much closer to a cap-out.
Toronto will spend much of this season trying to build an offense capable of keeping up with its rising defense, but there’s little evidence to suggest DeRozan is capable of playing a major role in such a system. He’s a perfectly useful player in moderation, but when featured too heavily — and paid in a way that prevents Toronto from adding more substantial talent — DeRozan gives his team an artificial ceiling. There is, of course, a chance that he improves dramatically; that potential is theoretically in play for every young athlete possessing DeRozan’s gifts. But $10 million or so a season is a tough price to pay based on an unsubstantiated gamble, or worse yet: a fear of missing out on DeRozan’s improbable epiphany.
http://nba.si.com/20...-demar-derozan/


Tim.W (The Picket Fence):


That’s nearly $10 million a season for a player who, among all shooting guards last season, was:
47th in PER
57th in True Shooting Percentage
66nd in Rebounding Percentage
55th in Assist Percentage
72nd in Steal Percentage
57th in Offensive Rating
55th in Defensive Rating
58th in Win Share per 48 minutes
6th in PPG
15th in PPG per 36 minutes
75th in three point percentage
Average place: 51st
http://www.wearingfi...ncial-meltdown/


Tim Chisholm said:


I wanted so badly to believe that he'd learned. After years of indefensible spending on mediocre players, it seemed like Bryan Colangelo had finally become cap-conscious after two years of smart, defensible spending.

And then this.

[...] This is a player that finished with a 12.8 PER last year, below the league average, and has seen his shooting percentages decrease every year he's been in the NBA.
Oh yeah, he's also a shooting guard that can't shoot threes (so much so, the club has absolved him of the responsibility of learning to), a guard that doesn't pass and an athlete with tremendous hops that doesn't rebound (he finished tied for 46th amongst 73 shooting guards in rebound rate last season).
For some reason, though, the Raptors found it imperative to (over)pay him when they would have controlled his rights as a restricted free agent next summer. Now they've banked severely on his ability to improve demonstrably after three years of relative stagnation, and at four years, they didn't even protect themselves by shortening the contract (either outright or with a team option) as recompense for extending a player that really hasn't done enough on the court to warrant such an investment.
http://www.tsn.ca/bl...holm/?id=408581

Dougie stopping his propaganda train in awe was already covered.


Joseph Cascairo (The Score's RaptorBlog):


At 23, DeMar still can’t defend despite his athleticism and he can’t pass, or he just chooses not to. His rebounding is inconsistent at best and his jump shot doesn’t exactly scream “shooting” guard. For me to even be convinced DeRozan deserved a place in this franchise going forward, I wanted him to prove he could become a more efficient scorer and at least become average in other facets of the game in his fourth season.

[...]
And that brings us to the last excuse for the contract, that Colangelo and co. probably thought another team would make him a $40+ million offer in free agency. My response? Good riddance!
[...]

Under normal circumstances, I would have looked at last night’s heartbreaking loss as frustrating, but still a glimmer of hope of how good this team can be this season and more importantly, in the future. Instead, my frustration over the near buzzer beating loss, the latest in a string of those at home over the years, was compounded by my concern and frustration over the fact that DeRozan’s new lucrative contract will hinder this team’s chances of getting that much better over the next couple of years.
http://blogs.thescor...y-indefensible/


Garrett Hinchey (Raptors Republic):


I really don’t like this extension. The upside of signing a young player to a deal like this is to essentially lock in an asset at a fixed price, with the hope that during the course of the contract the player outperforms its value. [...] By most accounts, DeMar’s best comparables in the league (in terms of production, not playing style) are scoring wings like OJ Mayo and Nick Young, and though it can be argued that he has more upside at this point in his career than both of them, this extension has him making as much as both of them combined annually.
http://raptorsrepubl...ozan-extension/


Eric K:


[...]you have to conclude that Colangelo paid DeRozan on potential. Well, OK: Let’s say, for argument’s sake, DeRozan goes on to have a revelatory year: His efficiency shoots way up playing next to Kyle Lowry and a healthy Bargnani, his defence improves and, most importantly, he is part of a successful Raptors team. What is the best offer he could have gotten? Portland’s Nicolas Batum was given a four-year, US$46-million offer from Minnesota. Adjusting for general managers’ increasing forgetfulness of the lessons of the lockout and the punitive nature of the league’s salary cap, let’s say DeRozan got a US$48-million offer, which seems steep at the moment. In that case, Colangelo just saved the Raptors a cap hit of US$2.5-million annually. Alternatively, he prevented the Raptors from losing DeRozan for nothing if they decided the price tag was too expensive. That is the best-case scenario.
The risk that Colangelo took: DeRozan does not improve, and the Raptors pay US$9.5-million to a below average starting shooting guard. Furthermore, the move decreases the Raptors’ flexibility, making the completion of a trade to acquire a star swingman less likely. It means the Raptors will be paying DeRozan, Landry Fields and Linas Kleiza more than US$20-million next season. The risk is that none of them will have proven to be good starting options, and rookie Terrence Ross does not come into his own. If DeRozan and Fields continue to start for the Raptors, it could mean the team has two starting wings who struggle to hit the three-point shot, restricting instead of expanding the floor.
http://sports.nation...-the-two-risks/ "
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Old 11-03-2012, 04:03 AM   #174 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
What some individuals have to say about this extraordinarily awesome move by BC

"Zach Lowe:


But as many NBA executives have told me, it takes only one sucker/asshole/fool to blow up a playerís market value. The Mavericks, Cavaliers, Pistons, Bucks, Magic, and Kings are just a few of the teams that could have major cap room and holes at the wing if things break in a particular direction, and though not all of those teams are going to like DeRozan, it takes only one.
All of this was at work in Torontoís decision to grant DeRozan an absurd extension, worth nearly $40 million over four years, that will put them over the cap this summer and take them out of the max-level cap derby in the summer of 2014. The trope is that ďadvanced statisticsĒ frown on DeRozan, but the truth is that very few statistics of any kind paint him as a productive player. Heís a low-percentage shooter who canít shoot 3s, and thus canít space the floor on the wing. He has never shown even average creativity or timing as a passer, and Dwane Casey cut down on DeRozanís pick-and-roll usage as soon as he got the Raptors head-coaching job. Heís a minus defender both on the ball (opponents shot better than 50 percent on isolation attempts last season, according to Synergy Sports) and not a particularly attentive helper off it. Heís only 23, but DeRozan has never had a league-average PER, and the chances he lives up to this deal are slim.
[...]
There is an alternative path here: See how DeRozan performs this year, and if heís shaky again with Terrence Ross waiting for more playing time, just let the guy walk and watch another sucker overpay.

http://www.grantland...tension-edition


Adam Francis (of RaptorsHQ):


At face value, there's no way to argue that this contract makes sense.
[...]
With DeRozan we're not only hoping for consistency, but that suddenly we'll see the ability to do, you know, what top-flight shooting guards do! Colangelo loves noting that at only 23, DeRozan has tons of time to make that leap, but forget his age, almost all stud shooting guards, from Kobe to Harden to hell, Richard Hamilton, perhaps DeMar's upside, show signs of the leap before year four. Hamilton was dropping in an efficient 20 a game with a PER of nearly 17 in year three.

http://www.raptorshq...tract-extension


Rob Mahoney:


But between DeRozan and the recently signed Landry Fields, Toronto now has roughly $16 million annually committed to an unproven wing core through 2015. Factor in the far more affordable (and honestly, far more promising) Terrence Ross, and itís hard to see what purpose DeRozan serves. This is a rebuilding team that has voluntarily hamstrung its own construction efforts, and though thatís hardly the fault of DeRozan alone, his deal brings the Raptors that much closer to a cap-out.
Toronto will spend much of this season trying to build an offense capable of keeping up with its rising defense, but thereís little evidence to suggest DeRozan is capable of playing a major role in such a system. Heís a perfectly useful player in moderation, but when featured too heavily ó and paid in a way that prevents Toronto from adding more substantial talent ó DeRozan gives his team an artificial ceiling. There is, of course, a chance that he improves dramatically; that potential is theoretically in play for every young athlete possessing DeRozanís gifts. But $10 million or so a season is a tough price to pay based on an unsubstantiated gamble, or worse yet: a fear of missing out on DeRozanís improbable epiphany.
http://nba.si.com/20...-demar-derozan/


Tim.W (The Picket Fence):


Thatís nearly $10 million a season for a player who, among all shooting guards last season, was:
47th in PER
57th in True Shooting Percentage
66nd in Rebounding Percentage
55th in Assist Percentage
72nd in Steal Percentage
57th in Offensive Rating
55th in Defensive Rating
58th in Win Share per 48 minutes
6th in PPG
15th in PPG per 36 minutes
75th in three point percentage
Average place: 51st
http://www.wearingfi...ncial-meltdown/


Tim Chisholm said:


I wanted so badly to believe that he'd learned. After years of indefensible spending on mediocre players, it seemed like Bryan Colangelo had finally become cap-conscious after two years of smart, defensible spending.

And then this.

[...] This is a player that finished with a 12.8 PER last year, below the league average, and has seen his shooting percentages decrease every year he's been in the NBA.
Oh yeah, he's also a shooting guard that can't shoot threes (so much so, the club has absolved him of the responsibility of learning to), a guard that doesn't pass and an athlete with tremendous hops that doesn't rebound (he finished tied for 46th amongst 73 shooting guards in rebound rate last season).
For some reason, though, the Raptors found it imperative to (over)pay him when they would have controlled his rights as a restricted free agent next summer. Now they've banked severely on his ability to improve demonstrably after three years of relative stagnation, and at four years, they didn't even protect themselves by shortening the contract (either outright or with a team option) as recompense for extending a player that really hasn't done enough on the court to warrant such an investment.
http://www.tsn.ca/bl...holm/?id=408581

Dougie stopping his propaganda train in awe was already covered.


Joseph Cascairo (The Score's RaptorBlog):


At 23, DeMar still canít defend despite his athleticism and he canít pass, or he just chooses not to. His rebounding is inconsistent at best and his jump shot doesnít exactly scream ďshootingĒ guard. For me to even be convinced DeRozan deserved a place in this franchise going forward, I wanted him to prove he could become a more efficient scorer and at least become average in other facets of the game in his fourth season.

[...]
And that brings us to the last excuse for the contract, that Colangelo and co. probably thought another team would make him a $40+ million offer in free agency. My response? Good riddance!
[...]

Under normal circumstances, I would have looked at last nightís heartbreaking loss as frustrating, but still a glimmer of hope of how good this team can be this season and more importantly, in the future. Instead, my frustration over the near buzzer beating loss, the latest in a string of those at home over the years, was compounded by my concern and frustration over the fact that DeRozanís new lucrative contract will hinder this teamís chances of getting that much better over the next couple of years.
http://blogs.thescor...y-indefensible/


Garrett Hinchey (Raptors Republic):


I really donít like this extension. The upside of signing a young player to a deal like this is to essentially lock in an asset at a fixed price, with the hope that during the course of the contract the player outperforms its value. [...] By most accounts, DeMarís best comparables in the league (in terms of production, not playing style) are scoring wings like OJ Mayo and Nick Young, and though it can be argued that he has more upside at this point in his career than both of them, this extension has him making as much as both of them combined annually.
http://raptorsrepubl...ozan-extension/


Eric K:


[...]you have to conclude that Colangelo paid DeRozan on potential. Well, OK: Letís say, for argumentís sake, DeRozan goes on to have a revelatory year: His efficiency shoots way up playing next to Kyle Lowry and a healthy Bargnani, his defence improves and, most importantly, he is part of a successful Raptors team. What is the best offer he could have gotten? Portlandís Nicolas Batum was given a four-year, US$46-million offer from Minnesota. Adjusting for general managersí increasing forgetfulness of the lessons of the lockout and the punitive nature of the leagueís salary cap, letís say DeRozan got a US$48-million offer, which seems steep at the moment. In that case, Colangelo just saved the Raptors a cap hit of US$2.5-million annually. Alternatively, he prevented the Raptors from losing DeRozan for nothing if they decided the price tag was too expensive. That is the best-case scenario.
The risk that Colangelo took: DeRozan does not improve, and the Raptors pay US$9.5-million to a below average starting shooting guard. Furthermore, the move decreases the Raptorsí flexibility, making the completion of a trade to acquire a star swingman less likely. It means the Raptors will be paying DeRozan, Landry Fields and Linas Kleiza more than US$20-million next season. The risk is that none of them will have proven to be good starting options, and rookie Terrence Ross does not come into his own. If DeRozan and Fields continue to start for the Raptors, it could mean the team has two starting wings who struggle to hit the three-point shot, restricting instead of expanding the floor.
http://sports.nation...-the-two-risks/ "
I hope he makes everyone chew their words....nice and slow!
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Old 11-03-2012, 02:54 PM   #175 (permalink)
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I hope he makes everyone chew their words....nice and slow!
We all hope for the best but then reality kicks in. I think it's a problem when a GM has to defend a move and when practically no writer/journalist, etc out there openly states that said move was smart.
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Old 11-03-2012, 03:05 PM   #176 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummond so people stop whining

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I hope he makes everyone chew their words....nice and slow!

Hope all you want, but all of that is true. And I don't think he'll ever be worth that money. There isn't one thing he does that's acceptional. Even his highly touted athletic ability is overblown. The worst part of it all is that we now have absolutely no capspace next summer. Next season we're probably still looking at Fields/Derozan starting.
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Old 11-03-2012, 03:13 PM   #177 (permalink)
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fuck me.... well, deal with the hand you're dealt as a fan !

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Old 11-03-2012, 03:19 PM   #178 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

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Hope all you want, but all of that is true. And I don't think he'll ever be worth that money. There isn't one thing he does that's acceptional. Even his highly touted athletic ability is overblown. The worst part of it all is that we now have absolutely no capspace next summer. Next season we're probably still looking at Fields/Derozan starting.
yeah because colangelo hasn't ever shown the ability to make a trade when need be, and rather good ones at that....
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Old 11-03-2012, 03:28 PM   #179 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummond so people stop whining

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yeah because colangelo hasn't ever shown the ability to make a trade when need be, and rather good ones at that....


For a star? Nope. Not saying it's easy. Also, if we trade for a star SF we'll end up giving up too much and having a hole or two somewhere else that'll come back to bit us. As it is our highest paid player is 10Mil and we're already over the cap for next summer. No max player, no star and we're over the cap. A year from now is Lowry's turn and he'll be looking for big money.
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Old 11-03-2012, 03:31 PM   #180 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
For a star? Nope. Not saying it's easy. Also, if we trade for a star SF we'll end up giving up too much and having a hole or two somewhere else that'll come back to bit us. As it is our highest paid player is 10Mil and we're already over the cap for next summer. No max player, no star and we're over the cap. A year from now is Lowry's turn and he'll be looking for big money.
dude, but apparently handing 16 million/year for mediocre sgs doesn't affect the cap at all and there is still so much "flexibility".

also, if DD got that then BC will hand Lowry the max.
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