Oak, Carter and T-Mac to appear on OTR on Thursday - Page 3
Old 11-05-2011, 12:39 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Exactly like their team when all three of them played together in 99-00, this interview didn't at all live up to its potential. It's not Landsberg fault like it was Butch Carter's though.

-They didn't touch on the fact that Addidas pressured Tracy to leave (& put equal pressure on Grunwald to let him leave easily), simply because they didn't want him in his cousin's shadow as Vince was taking over all endorsements in North America in only his 2nd year. Promising him that he'd have less pressure on him outside of Vince's shadow & an equally good player but less spectacular (than both he & Vince) runningmate in Grant Hill. And Gatorade too helping in that endeavor.

-They didn't touch upon Vince's agent at the time, Mark Steinberg, didn't like the fact that Oak was a MUCH healthier influence on Vince, and Vince was beginning to recognize it, so he used backroom politRicKs & thus got our lifeless tool of a coach, Lenny Wilkens, to ask Glen to move him (Oak touched on this in the interview, but didn't go further; this shows me that something's in the works for later).

-They didn't mention how with Tracy now a year out of Toronto, only thereof did Bill Duffy have leverage to force MLSE to overpay Stonehandio Davis w/that 5yr/$60M deal ($12M/yr: Stonehandio's game was at best worth $7.5M/yr; he didn't deserve his ASG nod as Theo Ratliff was injured & Coach Larry Brown chose Stonehandio to replace him over Brian Grant, who was having a similar yet more efficient year, b/c Larry had Stonehandio in their time in Indy....n/m Oak was truly overall better than him too!), and that makes all the other agents happy crappy over the out-of-wack- market tone that our summer 2001 signings set. Basically, every greedy money grubber associated w/the NBA gets paid more with the market being out of wack, all set by T-Mac leaving us at our expense. Don't forget we also richly overpaid Alvin Williams, Jerome Williams, and Hakeem Olajuwon.

-They didn't mention how Steinberg forced Babcock's hand to draft Hoffa (whom I think would've developed into a good roleplayer if it wasn't for Smitch) instead of Andre Igoudala, an athletic 3-position player from Lute Olson's Arizona program who had even more potential than Richard Jefferson. Only a week after the draft they turned stag and announce Vince is demanding a trade (on Canada Day at that; it was a deliberate insult which they could 'get away with' as Vince was busy with wedding preparations for July 3rd of that year), thoroughly fucking us over on multiple levels. Had we drafted Iggy, moving Vince would've been a whole lot easier as Babcock would be in a 'buyer's market' instead of being way behind in the 'seller's market' --it's even more sick when you know Vince began to understood he never had a reason to leave at all when Chris proved to be a better player than his NJN teammates soon thereafter. All Chris needed was the damn ball. Ditto MoPete!

I got lotta love now for Vince, Oak, & T-Mac, but they completely skirted over going in depth of the all the backroom shit goin on that led to the moves in this interview, which was leaked out on the street in T-dot over the years. You know for a fact that both Vince & Tracy, now that they're wise to how they've been manipulated (don't think for one second these issues aren't coming up at the meetings going on; they aren't telling you anything real & of substance in the media) completely regret how & when they left Toronto, especially Vince as he built his life here, buying a very expensive house he thought he was always gonna live in back in 2001. And Oak never wanted to leave in the first place.

What I've learned about the media in every big dollar industry is to ALWAYS think about what they're NOT telling you, and how they gloss things over from the imperative issues & facts. The fact that they didn't come close to going in-depth in all these issues (not even Oak did, & he was never one to hold back what was on his mind) on OTR w/Micheal Landsberg to go with all the same ol'bullshit smokescreens in the general NBA media indicates to me that both folk on the players side & owners/head office side are finally wise to agents fucking over folk in all NBA areas --except of course their faithful tools like Lebitch, who is still marketed as the league's best player despite flaming out like the pussy he is, 2yrs in a row, being thoroughly outshined by Dirk, Kobe, and also DWade-- and the agents are doing what they can to keep things under wraps. This w/aid of big businesses who directly profit as well from the bullshit games they play, such as the shoe corporations & Gatorade, all putting their own pressure on the media to stop them from printing & speaking about what's really goin on.

It aint the players, it aint the owners, and it aint David Stern or anything else they say in the media why the lockout's going on. It's all about these extra fuckwads, the agents & big business that profit off their games, losing ground and tryna gain it back that's stopping true NBA ball from going on. The players, owners, and head office are sick of it & fighting them. That's what's really going on.

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Old 11-05-2011, 05:15 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Everyone talks about Vince missing the game 7 last second shot, but does anyone not remember that wide open layup that Oak missed. Never seen a layup so wide open that didn't fall.

Anyways, I got this thread in the video vault about old games with vc and tmac that I found on YouTube (Not my upload)*

Old Raptor Games (VC and Tmac)







Raptors at LA Lakers, November 21, 1999..." target="_blank">Toronto Raptors at LA Lakers, November 21, 1999...

Raptors vs Bucks (VC 47) - YouTube" target="_blank">2000 Raptors vs Bucks (VC 47) - YouTube

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Old 11-05-2011, 08:24 AM   #43 (permalink)
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That made me sad for a second, then I realized we could have this again, demar, jonas, ed/amir/bargs, maybe bayless, maybe barnes. I know its different, but I can hope I guess
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He was allowing himself to be far too easily consoled by a sense of achievement where none was warranted. It's so much of where his personality all too often took him. Winning was just an aspect of the game, and it wasn't necessarily an essential aspect. He had far too many nights where he was not embarrassed by a blow-out loss, and he lived off of big wins and recognition for highlight plays far too much.
so, we've had this brought up in other threads before, but worth re-raising in this context? "leadership" and "personality"

talent is the most important thing probably but for me personality is just about as important.

so this new generation (that has tons of work to go to even be a playoff team,) may not have the talent of t-mac and Carter but with (imo) better personalties will that make the difference?

I really like bayless' feistiness and not wanting to be beaten, DD's work ethic plus desire to entertain balanced with responsibility to team, Ed davis seems leavel headed, really like what i've seen from jonas in that respect so far.
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:31 PM   #44 (permalink)
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What really stuck out to me was when Carter basically called the Raptors lek a training ground, and when he was ready left -___-
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:48 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Old 11-06-2011, 03:25 PM   #46 (permalink)
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-They didn't mention how Steinberg forced Babcock's hand to draft Hoffa (whom I think would've developed into a good roleplayer if it wasn't for Smitch)
Seriously? It was Sam's fault that Hoffa was a complete bust? What happened to him under Jerry Sloan? Where is he now?

He should have been no more then a late second round pick.
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Old 11-06-2011, 04:39 PM   #47 (permalink)
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who's Steinberg?
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Old 11-06-2011, 04:50 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I heard Landsberg talking about the interview on TSN radio yesterday. He just thought it was da bomb. And it ended up being extended, with the second half airing tomorrow. I just find it depressing that a team that ultimately fizzled rather than become elite ends up being cast as something of a golden age of Toronto basketball. 16 years in I just don't have the patience for such bullshit.
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Old 11-06-2011, 06:05 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I heard Landsberg talking about the interview on TSN radio yesterday. He just thought it was da bomb. And it ended up being extended, with the second half airing tomorrow. I just find it depressing that a team that ultimately fizzled rather than become elite ends up being cast as something of a golden age of Toronto basketball. 16 years in I just don't have the patience for such bullshit.

The only team that can be considered to have had a "golden age" in this city in my lifetime is the blue jays.
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Old 11-06-2011, 07:48 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I heard Landsberg talking about the interview on TSN radio yesterday. He just thought it was da bomb. And it ended up being extended, with the second half airing tomorrow. I just find it depressing that a team that ultimately fizzled rather than become elite ends up being cast as something of a golden age of Toronto basketball. 16 years in I just don't have the patience for such bullshit.
I liked the part where Oak said ".... when a team gets that close (Gm. 7 of the EC semis) you HAVE to that team back again to give it another go.

I agreed wholeheartedly.

I would have given anything to have seen that squad play another 2-3 years together.
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Old 11-06-2011, 07:58 PM   #51 (permalink)
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The only team that can be considered to have had a "golden age" in this city in my lifetime is the blue jays.
Even the bemoaning of what could have been a golden age bugs me. As much talent as the to stars possessed, they were simply prone to wasting it and being slowed by injuries, and a guy like Oakley was too much of a wild card as a leader of guys like that. There were some big long term holes up front, especially considering that oak and Davis were at the end of the line. The fact is that the best shot at getting results came in the series against Philly, when the team was peaking at the right time, and Vince simply should not have been considering anything else. If they get close to the Finals that year, then who knows what kinds of moves might have opened up for them as an attractive destination. That's what they needed, not keeping what was there at all costs.
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:06 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I liked the part where Oak said ".... when a team gets that close (Gm. 7 of the EC semis) you HAVE to that team back again to give it another go.

I agreed wholeheartedly.

I would have given anything to have seen that squad play another 2-3 years together.
I agree, and with a couple key additions they could have done something special.
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:19 PM   #53 (permalink)
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The team that played the following season was virtually the same with the exception of Oakley's absence. The real need was with guys up front, and pencilling in a broken down Hakeem just didn't take care of that. And the contracts handed out to keep the rest of them around ended up being pretty onerous. They fucked up with guys like Kornel David and Michael Bradley at a time when they desperately needed some young bigs as prospects. You could just as easily bemoan the loss of Camby at that time, since that was exactly the kind of player they needed desperately at the time.
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:39 PM   #54 (permalink)
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The team that played the following season was virtually the same with the exception of Oakley's absence. The real need was with guys up front, and pencilling in a broken down Hakeem just didn't take care of that. And the contracts handed out to keep the rest of them around ended up being pretty onerous. They fucked up with guys like Kornel David and Michael Bradley at a time when they desperately needed some young bigs as prospects. You could just as easily bemoan the loss of Camby at that time, since that was exactly the kind of player they needed desperately at the time.
Everything you said there is certainly true.... but I think that replacing Oak with Hakeem was really the beginning of the end for that squad.

In Oak, you had a player that was a leader in the lockerroom, feared and respected around the league by everyone, and a guy who could hold VC and T-Mac accountable every night.

When Hakeem came here he came for one last payday and really didn't give a flying fuk about the Raptors.

And yeah... it was a real shame about Camby.
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:45 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Everything you said there is certainly true.... but I think that replacing Oak with Hakeem was really the beginning of the end for that squad.

In Oak, you had a player that was a leader in the lockerroom, feared and respected around the league by everyone, and a guy who could hold VC and T-Mac accountable every night.

When Hakeem came here he came for one last payday and really didn't give a flying fuk about the Raptors.

And yeah... it was a real shame about Camby.
Yeah - I'll give you his veteran leadership. But I think the overall chemistry he brought had plusses and minuses, and he was fading as a player.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:39 AM   #56 (permalink)
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@ Pistol Pete: Thanks mate.

@ Jeffb: Dude I spent like an hour writing that post, & that's all you got from it? Damn! Anyways, Smitch shot Hoffa's confidence down like a motherfucker. Smitch begins the season by keeping him on the 3rd unit, then thrusts him into the starting unit (vs. the Lakers in Los Angeles of all places!) playing him on the same unit as Rafer Alston, who is the worst 1st line of defense in Raptors history.

Most centers, as in all except immediate all-stars, begin their development by getting consistent burn on the 2nd unit, playing w/guys who play defense, and when they have offensive skills (Hoffa could shoot, pass, and set killer screens; a rare combination for starting & backup centers even in today's NBA) they get touches within the flow of the offense. Hoffa's experience in Toronto under Smitch was so bad that his confidence was thoroughly shot by the time Sloan got his hands on him. I've never seen a center so badly treated by a coach before, and it didn't help at all that Hoffa never even experienced true homecourt advantage in his time with us.

@ LX: Mark Steinberg is a rich, idiotic fool who Vince foolishly trusted in his move out of Toronto. In his effort to mask the game he was playing w/MLSE, there was an article about him stepping down from being Vince's agent, but it was all bullshit. That article was in October 2004. Why the fuck would he stop being Vince's agent right smack dab in the middle of Vince's aggressive trade demand from the place he had spent his entire career, in such a career altering move? It was nothing but a smokescreen to mask the true manipulative game he was playing against MLSE at the time.

He also wrote an article saying 'bravo' to the moves Bryan Colangelo made in the days right after the 2006 NBA Draft (most of those moves were already in the works w/Maurizio at the helm, mind you, as he had a relationship w/MLSE dating back to at least summer 2005). It was a very sarcastic article, and I actually emailed him about it 5yrs ago (a day or two after it was published), and I was being equally sarcastic & subtle as he was in his article. The next thing I know, his article gets completely taken off the website he posted it at. He's a bigtime agent (also has Tiger Woods & Annika Sorenstam), but he's a coward when you show you're on to his bullshit games.


@ TORaptor4Ever: I fully agree w/you & Oak. But I disagree with you about Hakeem Olajuwon. We were actually in a bidding war with the Pacers for his services.

I must amend my previous statement on the top of this page. I said we overpaid for Hakeem Olajuwon, but that's only true in a 'hindsight 20-20' situation as he didn't play for 2 of the 3yrs of that deal (and I personally think he lived up to what we were paying him in his lone year with us; in Vince's absence to finish that year, we don't make the playoffs without Hakeem's leadership & what he could give us on the court) - whereas anyone who understands NBA finances could see the significant overpayment we gave Stonehandio, the dog, and the gimp as soon as those deals were announced (the gimp's deal was long-term even though he only had one good year with us at the time of the signing, and was uninsured).

I was sad about the way we dumped Oakley, as he had long been my favourite Knick growing up, and was awsome for team chemistry, and thought he should finish his career with us & then become an assistant coach with us. Oak was not only ace for the team's locker room, he also was a solid shooter who could play anywhere on the floor w/Vince, while Hakeem, still a good player in his season with us, would only duplicate Stonehandio's middling post offense and push him to power forward, where he was a weaker defender. Oak was also on a much affordable deal; I felt we were underpaying him at the $6.3M/yr he was making, yet we pay Stonehandio double that? WTF?

Hakeem, despite being the best center ever IMHO even back then (I've NEVER seen a center do what he did in the 93-94 & 94-95 seasons, juss like I've never seen a power forward do what Dirk has done in 2010-11 here), couldn't replace Oak's personality. You can find former all-stars wanting to play w/a talent like Vince anytime, but in any era of basketball, how often do you find a perfect role player with such toughness & leadership as Oakley? You juss don't, and I find that sad.

My sadness was tempered (in a blindful hopeful way; meaning you couldn't really justify dumping Oak in any which way, really) by the fact that we won the bidding war for Hakeem, but in the end all the plans quickly got fucked up. Oak was mistreated b/c management was intimidated about losing Vince (even in the exact year we extended him! Ain't that a bitch!), and their fear resulted in a whole bunch of moves which blew up in the organization's & fan's faces. A good guy was mistreated, mgmt gave into evil people's threats instead of standing up to them, and we all paid for it thereof. I'm sure wise folk amongst the players, owners & David Stern's camp have paid this situation extra attention, knowing very well the agents would try all what they've done to us, to any team they possibly could that isn't already in a racket with them.

I never regretted the Camby for Oakley trade. Camby was a soft player back then (he isn't now; he hasn't been soft since leaving NYK), agents were picking on the Raptors to overpay right from the jump ever since we dumped power-hungry Isiah Thomas (at the time; I hope he's changed now) & thus would've asked us to overpay for him, and wouldn't have brought any of the intangibles that Oak gave us. I think it's one of the best trades in Raptor history. The only better trade we made at the time was getting Vince in that pre-arranged deal on Draft Day '98. Oakley, Kevin Willis & Dell Curry set the cultural tone for the great 2000-01 season we had. Kevin got traded before midseason that year, but good he got his Championship ring w/the Spurs 2yrs later in '03. I remember Larry Tannenbaum would attend Spurs playoff games that year, obviously in honor of how good Kevin was for us. I reckon he would've done the same thing for Oak, had he too been on a championship team w/other players of similar character.

Last edited by bladeofBG; 11-07-2011 at 03:41 AM. Reason: I meant 2006 NBA Draft & Oakley = awsome.
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Old 11-07-2011, 10:44 AM   #57 (permalink)
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@ Pistol Pete: Thanks mate.

@ Jeffb:Dude I spent like an hour writing that post, & that's all you got from it? Damn! Anyways, Smitch shot Hoffa's confidence down like a motherfucker. Smitch begins the season by keeping him on the 3rd unit, then thrusts him into the starting unit (vs. the Lakers in Los Angeles of all places!) playing him on the same unit as Rafer Alston, who is the worst 1st line of defense in Raptors history.

Most centers, as in all except immediate all-stars, begin their development by getting consistent burn on the 2nd unit, playing w/guys who play defense, and when they have offensive skills (Hoffa could shoot, pass, and set killer screens; a rare combination for starting & backup centers even in today's NBA) they get touches within the flow of the offense. Hoffa's experience in Toronto under Smitch was so bad that his confidence was thoroughly shot by the time Sloan got his hands on him. I've never seen a center so badly treated by a coach before, and it didn't help at all that Hoffa never even experienced true homecourt advantage in his time with us.
Wow. I want to cry right now... I really do.

FINALLY someone else (other than LX and Thrills) who remembers things the way that I do re: Haffa.

Props.

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@ TORaptor4Ever: I fully agree w/you & Oak. But I disagree with you about Hakeem Olajuwon. We were actually in a bidding war with the Pacers for his services.

I must amend my previous statement on the top of this page. I said we overpaid for Hakeem Olajuwon, but that's only true in a 'hindsight 20-20' situation as he didn't play for 2 of the 3yrs of that deal (and I personally think he lived up to what we were paying him in his lone year with us; in Vince's absence to finish that year, we don't make the playoffs without Hakeem's leadership & what he could give us on the court) - whereas anyone who understands NBA finances could see the significant overpayment we gave Stonehandio, the dog, and the gimp as soon as those deals were announced (the gimp's deal was long-term even though he only had one good year with us at the time of the signing, and was uninsured).

I was sad about the way we dumped Oakley, as he had long been my favourite Knick growing up, and was awsome for team chemistry, and thought he should finish his career with us & then become an assistant coach with us. Oak was not only ace for the team's locker room, he also was a solid shooter who could play anywhere on the floor w/Vince, while Hakeem, still a good player in his season with us, would only duplicate Stonehandio's middling post offense and push him to power forward, where he was a weaker defender. Oak was also on a much affordable deal; I felt we were underpaying him at the $6.3M/yr he was making, yet we pay Stonehandio double that? WTF?

Hakeem, despite being the best center ever IMHO even back then (I've NEVER seen a center do what he did in the 93-94 & 94-95 seasons, juss like I've never seen a power forward do what Dirk has done in 2010-11 here), couldn't replace Oak's personality. You can find former all-stars wanting to play w/a talent like Vince anytime, but in any era of basketball, how often do you find a perfect role player with such toughness & leadership as Oakley? You juss don't, and I find that sad.

My sadness was tempered (in a blindful hopeful way; meaning you couldn't really justify dumping Oak in any which way, really) by the fact that we won the bidding war for Hakeem, but in the end all the plans quickly got fucked up. Oak was mistreated b/c management was intimidated about losing Vince (even in the exact year we extended him! Ain't that a bitch!), and their fear resulted in a whole bunch of moves which blew up in the organization's & fan's faces. A good guy was mistreated, mgmt gave into evil people's threats instead of standing up to them, and we all paid for it thereof. I'm sure wise folk amongst the players, owners & David Stern's camp have paid this situation extra attention, knowing very well the agents would try all what they've done to us, to any team they possibly could that isn't already in a racket with them.

I never regretted the Camby for Oakley trade. Camby was a soft player back then (he isn't now; he hasn't been soft since leaving NYK), agents were picking on the Raptors to overpay right from the jump ever since we dumped power-hungry Isiah Thomas (at the time; I hope he's changed now) & thus would've asked us to overpay for him, and wouldn't have brought any of the intangibles that Oak gave us. I think it's one of the best trades in Raptor history. The only better trade we made at the time was getting Vince in that pre-arranged deal on Draft Day '98. Oakley, Kevin Willis & Dell Curry set the cultural tone for the great 2000-01 season we had. Kevin got traded before midseason that year, but good he got his Championship ring w/the Spurs 2yrs later in '03. I remember Larry Tannenbaum would attend Spurs playoff games that year, obviously in honor of how good Kevin was for us. I reckon he would've done the same thing for Oak, had he too been on a championship team w/other players of similar character.
As much as Grunwald took a lot of heat for giving out those contracts I still have a lot of respect for the guy because I feel like he was the one guy in our organization's history who understood that you need tough, hard-nosed vets who excel defensively, to compliment your stars.

Childs... Willis... Oak... Christie.... these guys were GREAT to have in practice and in the lockerroom.

Other than Garbo a few years ago (and Marion for 1/2 a season) I don't think that I've seen a single player in that mold come here. Maybe JO as well if he wasn't such a gimp.

Forgot that Oak was traded for Camby (don't know how). That benefited both teams. Agreed.
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:06 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Wow. I want to cry right now... I really do.

FINALLY someone else (other than LX and Thrills) who remembers things the way that I do re: Haffa.

Props.
Try again. That brand of crazy is clearly very special. I can't claim to have it at all.
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:57 AM   #59 (permalink)
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chalk me up with LX, vince was always a loser and milwaukee(also took philly to 7) had 3 20ppg scorers one of which was ray allen back when he was athletic. The raps were just one of many average teams is a horrible east, vince was never going to lead them to shit
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:08 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Try again. That brand of crazy is clearly very special. I can't claim to have it at all.
LOL.... I'm pretty sure he was thinking of me.
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