The need to trade Jose - Page 5
Old 01-31-2011, 03:25 PM   #81 (permalink)
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I think Jose has to be a better weapon for this team. The guy holds a unbreakable record
in ft% percentage and we are lucky if we get 2 ft a game. Someone said 15th in 3 point%. If his avg. attempts are over 3 I would be absolutely shocked.
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Old 01-31-2011, 03:39 PM   #82 (permalink)
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and i have asked myself that question. the answer is that they have a better defensive team, and a better defensive system.
I have stopped the quote prematurely, I know.

If you are going to criticize the entire team for lack of defensive system and intensity - I am with you. What I don't like is when on a weak defensive team a player who actually leads them in steals and tries really hard this season gets singled out as a bad defender.
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Old 01-31-2011, 03:53 PM   #83 (permalink)
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I have stopped the quote prematurely, I know.

If you are going to criticize the entire team for lack of defensive system and intensity - I am with you. What I don't like is when on a weak defensive team a player who actually leads them in steals and tries really hard this season gets singled out as a bad defender.
Point guards typically lead their team in steals because they guard the primary ball handler. That's just reality.

I could play for the Raptors and try really hard...I'd be the worst defender on the team...and it would be fair to criticize me as such. Yes as a team we're not good defensively and Jose is a bad individual defender and not particularly deft at team defence. That's been illustrated with countless of statistical analysis and observational evidence over the years.

No matter how nice he is or how hard he tries, he hasn't really done anything to improve his defensive abilities. Deal with it
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:02 PM   #84 (permalink)
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I have stopped the quote prematurely, I know.

If you are going to criticize the entire team for lack of defensive system and intensity - I am with you. What I don't like is when on a weak defensive team a player who actually leads them in steals and tries really hard this season gets singled out as a bad defender.
i hear you, and i think i've accounted for that. we are a weak defensive team, and jose is not our only bad defender.

that said, i think we want to move forward with derozan (at least i'd prefer to move forward with him), so that means we can't also have a weak defender at the point. this is not a matter of giving effort. jose can try as hard as he wants, but he's just not quick enough to do the job. he's a very poor defensinve guard. i can't see how anyone could disagree with this. and to lead a terrible defensive team in steals in no way suggests that you are a good defender.

this is why i have said, repeatedly, that jose just doesn't fit here anymore. we can't have him and derozan in the back court or we will get torn to shreds. dd has lots of upside and jose has none. add to that the fact that jose can't penetrate, create offense, get his shot off the dribble against a defender of any calibre, and the fact that he gets paid a starter's salary on a team that is under the cap and in need of every penny we can get, and it is more than obvious to me that jose needs to go. these problems cannot be overcome by him trying hard.

he's not a bad player, and we are a bad team defensively. neither of these are good reasons to keep him when the reasons to let him go are much stronger.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:16 PM   #85 (permalink)
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this is why i have said, repeatedly, that jose just doesn't fit here anymore. we can't have him and derozan in the back court or we will get torn to shreds. dd has lots of upside and jose has none. add to that the fact that jose can't penetrate, create offense, get his shot off the dribble against a defender of any calibre, and the fact that he gets paid a starter's salary on a team that is under the cap and in need of every penny we can get, and it is more than obvious to me that jose needs to go. these problems cannot be overcome by him trying hard.
Supposing you are right for a second - how do you propose we trade such a monster?
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:17 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Supposing you are right for a second - how do you propose we trade such a monster?
Like every other monster before him. To the highest bidder.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:20 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Supposing you are right for a second - how do you propose we trade such a monster?
i never said he was a monster. a team like la could use him. that's one possibility. there are probably several teams that could accomodate his style of play. maybe a contender needs a pg due to injuries near the deadline. maybe in teh offseason someone wants to take him on with fewer years left. he's a nba quality guy, just a huge liability for a team like ours.

edit - any capped out team could want him because there's no way they can get a player of that quality for the minimum.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:35 PM   #88 (permalink)
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"Monster" remark was a bit of sarcasm...

You propose that we can't use Jose, but another team could and would. Yet you list a number of deficiencies that would make any GM cringe no matter what the contract of the player in question is.

What I am trying to say is that we should probably be resigned to the idea that Jose will be part of this rebuilding process, hopefully as a mentor for someone like Irving - and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:45 PM   #89 (permalink)
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i disagree. we almost moved him last summer, and i can easily see us moving him at the deadline or next summer. not everyone is in the same cap situation as us, and this is a big deal. for teams that are way over the cap, aquiring talented guys is next to impossible, and a few milion more is often no big deal.

no nba player is perfect, although some are close to it. most come with deficiencies. the point is to find players whose deficiencies you can mask and whose talents fit with the rest of your team. jose's do not fit with the Raptors at this stage.

he has value, it's just not value we can use.
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:21 PM   #90 (permalink)
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I see your point 'trane, but I think unless we get another solid vet with the right mindset, then Jose's a pretty good fit on a team that isn't going anywhere too fast. And I'd say if we can hang on to him until next year's trade deadline, then there could be a much bigger market opening up. I'd really like to see trades made that bring back players that we're dead certain on wanting, to help put together that puzzle that you allude to in terms of finding the right fit, rather than just taking another shot on some guy that is made available.
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:35 PM   #91 (permalink)
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i never said he was a monster. a team like la could use him. that's one possibility. there are probably several teams that could accomodate his style of play. maybe a contender needs a pg due to injuries near the deadline. maybe in teh offseason someone wants to take him on with fewer years left. he's a nba quality guy, just a huge liability for a team like ours.

edit - any capped out team could want him because there's no way they can get a player of that quality for the minimum.
LA is actually the perfect fit for Jose 1. he gets to play with Gasol again & 2. He would take away some Ball handling responsibility from Kobe & 2. He would become an excellent spot up 3 point shooter for the triangle offence.

I wonder if we could trade Jose for Steve Blake or (S. Brown although I don't think he will want to come to T.O. and leave his girl Monica in LA) + fillers...
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:05 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Jose is not a spot up shooter. He always hesitates.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:06 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Jose is not a spot up shooter. He always hesitates.

that's putting it mildly
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:19 PM   #94 (permalink)
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But how do most young players succeed? They succeed with confidence and winning, no matter what, inspires confidence (example A: Boston).

Having a smooth offence, where young players can come in and know their role is important to the development of them. You need veteran players for a reason.

Bayless, while a nice player but I'm not sure what he is right now, isn't the best distributor or point guard in the world. Yes, he has good games, but sometimes you need a steady hand.
True, you can't tell if Bayless just needs to learn or if he just does not have the vision to be a distributer. But bottom line is that you are going to be a good and effective point guard or you are not. Either you have it in you or you don't. I don't have the stats before me but I think of guys like Nash, Kidd and Billups. They came in with crap teams and lost, usually took their lumps for a while too. I think Kidd was even a malcontent. But skill trumps everything. That's why guys like Marcus Banks will continue to watch games no matter how much work they put in.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:43 PM   #95 (permalink)
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So, did you notice the lineup that got the Raps back into the game in the second quarter, primarily by playing energetic defense? Davis, Amir, Wright, DeRozan and... Why... Yes... Jose Calderon. How come?

Until we have a better starting point guard, Jose has to stay.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:45 PM   #96 (permalink)
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So, did you notice the lineup that got the Raps back into the game in the second quarter, primarily by playing energetic defense? Davis, Amir, Wright, DeRozan and... Why... Yes... Jose Calderon. How come?

Until we have a better starting point guard, Jose has to stay.
no he doesn't
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:22 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Great response, well thought out.

Our wings can't handle the ball, especially on a break. Our primary backup PG is not really a PG at all. Sure, trade the only guy on the team who can run it...
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:48 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Collangelo should do Jose a favor and trade him to a team that's going to see some post-season action. Jose deserves better.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:57 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Derozan isn't a bad defender. It's Triano's mandate that the wings deny everything and anything. Gerald Greene could be sitting 2 feet outside the three point line and Derozan is going to be playing in the passing lane up the line because that's what Triano decided over three months ago. It's completely amateurish and predictable. You can't just have a system and say this is our system. You have to play your opponent.


Derozan is an average defender guarding the hardest defensive position in the league on a horrible defensive team with a simple-minded defensive coach. It's only his situation that is keeping him from excelling on defense.


Nonetheless, the man still finds opportunities to create turnovers on a consistent basis.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:00 AM   #100 (permalink)
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We SHOULD trade Jose..... if we want to finish dead last this season. Because we'll be much worse without him.

Make it so!
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