The need to trade Jose - Page 4
Old 01-30-2011, 08:54 PM   #61 (permalink)
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We were were worse offensively when Jose was out
Looking at the offensive numbers the last 3 weeks i doubt it's by much if at all. Either way we're not winning with Jose starting which has been a trend the last 3yrs.
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:12 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Looking at the offensive numbers the last 3 weeks i doubt it's by much if at all. Either way we're not winning with Jose starting which has been a trend the last 3yrs.
The last 3 weeks, how many of our players have been healthy during that span? What's our schedule been like?

Also, you can't really pin the blame of a poor team on Jose for the past 3 years can you? Boston sucked for a such a long time, was the Pierce's fault?
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Old 01-30-2011, 10:39 PM   #63 (permalink)
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This is not about the offense being better or worse it's about giving the young players on this team more ball handling responsibility & seeing what they do with it.
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:56 PM   #64 (permalink)
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We don't know what Irving is yet, but I don't see Washington complaining about one young John Wall. Outside of injury, they could have me as backup PG and be happy.
That's why Washington went out and got 30 year old Kirk Hinrich. Or why Minnesota went out and got 29 year old Luke Ridnour.

Having a veteran point guard is invaluable.
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Old 01-31-2011, 03:57 AM   #65 (permalink)
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I could be wrong but isn't Jose 2/1 assist to turn over in the last few games. His turn over numbers should be a lot worse too, they usually give it to the last touch, so he snakes his way out of being accountable for some of those brutal post passes.
Actually I think the turnover is given to the last guy who had possession of the ball. The passer often gets the turnover if the guy getting the pass slips it through his hands or doesnt really come to meet the pass allowing a turnover. So basically PG's (and other guys who handle the ball a lot and create offense for others) actually receive more turnovers than they should.

And when it comes to our low scoring in last few games, do you guys really think its Calderons fault? Our first option is shooting like 20% from the field lately and the only other guy who can even somewhat create his own shots is inconsistent as hell.

And maybe our offense is predictable, because we just dont have that many choices. When guys like Wright and Davis playing major minutes, you just dont have that many guys on the floor that can be used for offensive purposes.

Btw. 2/1 assits to turnover ratio isnt that bad for a stretch. Some guys that average that kind of numbers for season: Manu Ginobili, Chauncey Billups, Jerryd Bayless, Stephen Curry, Jarret Jack, Tyreke Evans. And for the season Jose is still more like 4/1.
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:29 AM   #66 (permalink)
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That's why Washington went out and got 30 year old Kirk Hinrich. Or why Minnesota went out and got 29 year old Luke Ridnour.

Having a veteran point guard is invaluable.
LIke I said, they may as well have had me as a back up.
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Old 01-31-2011, 08:59 AM   #67 (permalink)
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This is not about the offense being better or worse it's about giving the young players on this team more ball handling responsibility & seeing what they do with it.
But how do most young players succeed? They succeed with confidence and winning, no matter what, inspires confidence (example A: Boston).

Having a smooth offence, where young players can come in and know their role is important to the development of them. You need veteran players for a reason.

Bayless, while a nice player but I'm not sure what he is right now, isn't the best distributor or point guard in the world. Yes, he has good games, but sometimes you need a steady hand.
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:07 AM   #68 (permalink)
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But how do most young players succeed? They succeed with confidence and winning, no matter what, inspires confidence (example A: Boston).

Having a smooth offence, where young players can come in and know their role is important to the development of them. You need veteran players for a reason.

Bayless, while a nice player but I'm not sure what he is right now, isn't the best distributor or point guard in the world. Yes, he has good games, but sometimes you need a steady hand.
True but, there is no need for a steady vet hand with just 13 wins & at Jose's price for that matter...

I say we trade him now, shedding his contract & pick up a much cheaper vet PG in the off season...

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Old 01-31-2011, 09:16 AM   #69 (permalink)
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for me it's not about getting the young players the ball, and it's not about the overall offence being better or worse this year, or even next. it's about 2 things:

1. setting a tone at the first point of attack on the defensive end. i don't think jose can even begin to guard penetration, and i think that sets the whole team back on our heels on every opposing team's possession, especially in the half court.

2. having the kind of guy that can break defenses down to maximize offensive opportunities, and who can create something in situations where the shot clock is running down. i have no problem with jose running a slow, pldding offense sometimes, and i have no problem with him on the fast break. but every other type of offense that you need to attack a sophisticated nba defense is unavailable as an option as long as jose is running the point. he can't break anyone down, he can get into the seams, he can't create offensive space for himself or others, and he can't get his shot off the dribble if anyone is defending him. this is a disaster for an nba team. he doesn't have much to work with in terms of teammates, but that's no excuse for the kind of slow, penetration-free offenseive sets that we run with jose when not in a fast break situation.

these two factors - point defense and penetration/opportunity creation - are two of the most critical aspects of pg play, and we don't have any of it as long as jose is our go-to guy.

and paying $9 mil for a backup to do that 15 mins per game is a huge waste of money on a rebuilding team. we're under the cap as it is, so every dollar that we are under has more value. if we were already capped out i would advocate for keeping jose as it would be tough to replace his value, but we're not, and saving an extra $5-$9 mil or so (depending on what we got back for him) would go a long way to plugging some of the holes we have, at point or otherwise.

this is not to excuse bargnani, derozan or others, or to claim that this is the only hole we have, but it is a critical one. as long as this is how we defend and as long as this is who handles the ball in crunch time, we're doomed, almost regardless of the other players we have. until we replace our other 4 guys with stars or near stars, jose causes more harm than good on this roster.

i like the guy. he's a good teammate and probably a stand-up guy, but he's hurting us. he needs to go. and as tentative as i am to agree with jeff first thing on a monday morning, jose has done little over the last several years to show me that he is any kind of answer going forward. if we want to change the mindest of this team we need regime change. point guard is a great position to make that kind of switch.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:21 AM   #70 (permalink)
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for me it's not about getting the young players the ball, and it's not about the overall offence being better or worse this year, or even next. it's about 2 things:

1. setting a tone at the first point of attack on the defensive end. i don't think jose can even begin to guard penetration, and i think that sets the whole team back on our heels on every opposing team's possession, especially in the half court.

2. having the kind of guy that can break defenses down to maximize offensive opportunities, and who can create something in situations where the shot clock is running down. i have no problem with jose running a slow, pldding offense sometimes, and i have no problem with him on the fast break. but every other type of offense that you need to attack a sophisticated nba defense is unavailable as an option as long as jose is running the point. he can't break anyone down, he can get into the seams, he can't create offensive space for himself or others, and he can't get his shot off the dribble if anyone is defending him. this is a disaster for an nba team. he doesn't have much to work with in terms of teammates, but that's no excuse for the kind of slow, penetration-free offenseive sets that we run with jose when not in a fast break situation.

these two factors - point defense and penetration/opportunity creation - are two of the most critical aspects of pg play, and we don't have any of it as long as jose is our go-to guy.

and paying $9 mil for a backup to do that 15 mins per game is a huge waste of money on a rebuilding team. we're under the cap as it is, so every dollar that we are under has more value. if we were already capped out i would advocate for keeping jose as it would be tough to replace his value, but we're not, and saving an extra $5-$9 mil or so (depending on what we got back for him) would go a long way to plugging some of the holes we have, at point or otherwise.

this is not to excuse bargnani, derozan or others, or to claim that this is the only hole we have, but it is a critical one. as long as this is how we defend and as long as this is who handles the ball in crunch time, we're doomed, almost regardless of the other players we have. until we replace our other 4 guys with stars or near stars, jose causes more harm than good on this roster.

i like the guy. he's a good teammate and probably a stand-up guy, but he's hurting us. he needs to go. and as tentative as i am to agree with jeff first thing on a monday morning, jose has done little over the last several years to show me that he is any kind of answer going forward. if we want to change the mindest of this team we need regime change. point guard is a great position to make that kind of switch.
Great post.

You summed it up perfectly.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:15 AM   #71 (permalink)
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just to be clear - I don't see anybody saying Jose is any answer, or that he's done anything to prove that he could be the answer. If that was the case then I wouldn't be looking to draft a pg that makes Jose a clear cut backup. I think he'd be a good guy to have here next season. Of course there could be better options if the right trade comes along, but this thread was all about the desperate need to be rid of him pronto, with no concern over what that might mean going forward.

If we can't get a stud pg, but grab a wing player that can break down defenses, then Jose's inability to do so will not be such a problem. I strongly disagree that he's useless unless he's surrounded by stars, or that he's hurting the team as things stand. When he was sitting there was plenty of hurt to go around, and there was less of a sense of direction. These guys need only to look to play well in small stretches at this point, and find some things to build on, and Jose is hardly a terrible option to aid in that process.

As far as I can see, he's done that. And if he is ever needed to step aside, he'll likely do so without any problems. One thing I would absolutely hate to see, would be a great guy like Bayless getting a sense that he's a starter before he is able to take on such a role. That was the biggest problem with Jose. I really don't want that exercise repeated in any way. Role definition is extremely important right now - as murky as it's going to be with this group, if they can get the clearest sense possible of what kinds of roles different players can work towards filling, then they are getting somewhere, and will at least have a starting point next season.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:31 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Jose is a true pass first point guard. Those of you saying he is a scrub, and a backup, simply do not watch enough basketball other than raptors. I agree that this is not the best situation for him, but with his skillset, he could be a fringe top 10 poing guard in this league. Yup, I said that.
#7 in assists per game
#15 in 3 point %
#2 in assists per to
Always good free throw %, always good shooting %, always low turnovers, steals and rebounds all at career highs.
When healthy, he is a 12ppg, 9apg, 3rpg, 2to, pass first point guard with below average defence.

It is time for him to go somewhere that he can win. Not because he is a bad player, but, because is a good, potentially great player.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:35 AM   #73 (permalink)
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He is a good player that needs to fill the proper role. Trying to get him to fill a role that requires greatness, or even the remote chance of greatness, is going to make him look like a bad player and validate everything bad anyone has ever said about him.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:52 AM   #74 (permalink)
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he's a liability. plain and simple. he can't defend at all. i don't see any of this 'improvement' some guys are speaking of. you could say that he's improved in that he is better than he was with bad hammy's, but he's no better as an individual defender than at any other time when he was healthy. and that means he's straight up awful. opposing pg's lick their chops when they see him as their primary defender. add to that the fact that he has a history of injuries and bad wheels and that defensive weakness is magnified on a regular basis.

i don't care what he's doing offensively unless he's putting up superstar numbers, which he isn't. we get killed on the other end when he's in the game. i've been watching it for 3 years now, and we're just not a good enough defensive team to cover it up.

as to the issue of being an 'answer' - all i mean is that we don't have a role for him. even as a backup his salary and glaring weaknesses can't be overcome if we are to improve this team. he is not an answer to anything we need. he could fill a good role on other teams, but not here. there's just no need for him. and if we can't get a starting quality pg for next year we're f'd anyways. i see no value in continuing on with a guy we know is wrong just so that we have a guy.
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:41 PM   #75 (permalink)
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LIke I said, they may as well have had me as a back up.
the common factor here is that those 2 back ups turned it too starters. lol.
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:55 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Lots of stuff wrong with this team and trying to crystallize it all into being Jose is ridic. There are a lot worse players son this team. The ONLY reason to trade Jose is because;
1. You can find someone better to spend the money on.
2. His contract is too big.

Guess what... 1. We have a TPE and expiring players and still can't spend the money til year end. Even then we might be hard pressed. 2. You still need 1 to be true for 2 to be true. You wait until teams want to trade in the off season or you have to take on....?

There is no reaosn to trade Jose right now. None... zero. Blame him all you want. Do you want this team to win an extra 2 games... ok who do we get that does that? Do we sacfirice anything for that (negative trade where we trade picks to unload him)? The only way Jose goes somewhere now is if we take on worse players that are expiring. So the team gets WORSE. So all you thinking trading Jose makes us better... it does not. It just makes the tank easier.
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:01 PM   #77 (permalink)
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he's a liability. plain and simple. he can't defend at all.
You love strong statements, don't you? You may, perhaps, wish to ask yourself, how come Spanish national team has been quite successful for years with Jose as its starting point guards, playing for a very defensive-minded coach in Hernandez?
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:17 PM   #78 (permalink)
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You love strong statements, don't you? You may, perhaps, wish to ask yourself, how come Spanish national team has been quite successful for years with Jose as its starting point guards, playing for a very defensive-minded coach in Hernandez?
i do love strong statements.

and i have asked myself that question. the answer is that they have a better defensive team, and a better defensive system, and they play in a different type of game in international competitions, against a different level of overall talent.

and none of that makes jose a better defender. it just means they have a easier time covering for his weakness. and i never said jose wasn't a good player. i just said he doesn't fit on this team because of his skill set and his salary.
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:36 PM   #79 (permalink)
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i do love strong statements.

and i have asked myself that question. the answer is that they have a better defensive team, and a better defensive system, and they play in a different type of game in international competitions, against a different level of overall talent.

and none of that makes jose a better defender. it just means they have a easier time covering for his weakness. and i never said jose wasn't a good player. i just said he doesn't fit on this team because of his skill set and his salary.
well lets face it, unless spain is playing team USA jose is most likely out there guarding another white guy. Thought i should point that out even though i dont think jose's D is as bad as most.

Opposing PG's get where they want period without great team defence+ refs on your side. PG is the fastest and most skilled position in the league, 1 on 1 nobody is going to stop an elite offensive pg who knows where he's going before the defender.Yes Jose is a little slow due to having oversized calfs that put extra stain on is hammy's but i'm still much more concerend over our C defensivly.

when it comes down to it, Jose just needs to quit being such a pussy and dunk more(this is why jordan wanted him)
Calderon dunks against the..." target="_blank">YouTube - Jose Calderon dunks against the...
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:42 PM   #80 (permalink)
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for the record, and i've said this before, my issue is not about guarding elite pg's. we can't do that either, but it's a system thing. beno udrih is not an elite pg, but he blows by jose regularly when they play. he's a turnstile.

we need defense on the perimiter. surely people must agree with me about that. derozan is only going to give us so much, so if we're going to keep him we need a defender at the point. i'd rather go forward with him than jose, so that means jose, especially at that price, no longer has a role on our team.
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