The need to trade Jose - Page 2
Old 01-30-2011, 12:24 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Jose can be a part of a lockdown defense. He knows what to do. He knows where to be. He doesn't make horrendous mistakes, he just gets beaten by speed, and much less so when he's not hampered by injury. He used to give up on defensive plays far too easily, and now he hangs in there and fights when a faster guy is going past him. That makes a huge difference in terms of team defense. You can't tell me that Fisher plays any differently.

The guy doesn't need a special situation to make up for a gigantic weakness anymore. He's worked on his defense to the point where it is not the albatross so many are still seeing somehow. He would do well on any number of teams. But he is going to excel as a backup, because then he doesn't have to tax his body as much.
$10 million dollar back up though? Ouch. that dollar figure does count, unless you are a spending team.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:24 PM   #22 (permalink)
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jeff, my good friend, you are being a tool.

if he is so bad, how will you propose to trade him?
A tool for wanting Jose traded? I'm far from being alone there.And anyone can be traded, even Jose and his shitty contract.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I dont think we can afford to trade him if we cant get fair value for him. How do we match his salary with another players and improve our team? he does bring a lot to the overall dynamic of the team.
Otherwise we are just dumping his salary? Why? We have to pay somebody.
Im not a fan of his either im just sick of colangelo wasting any assets we can accumulate while doing deals to correct his mistakes (which everyone fails to mention when praising him about how quickly he acts to correct his neverending parade of mistakes)
I just dont see us finishing low enough to pick Irving or maybe i do it .I just dont see that salary being spent making this team better going forward. If you have to spend that 8 million its gotta be on an average SF PG or C.How does that help us any better than Jose?
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:28 PM   #24 (permalink)
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he's absolutely and completely still an albatross, and he definitely needs a special situation to hide his weaknesses. a team full of defenders like la could do this. toronto can't. if he's a backup, which i think he is, he's waaaay to expensive for a rebuilding team. he needs to go more than any other raptor. the same case could be made for Bargs but i'd rather keep him because if the way he can score. i know i'm in a minority on that one.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:28 PM   #25 (permalink)
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$10 million dollar back up though? Ouch. that dollar figure does count, unless you are a spending team.
If they add a rookie contract to take over the starting role, then it's not an outrageous amount for the position. A position that counts more than any other.

And the longer he stays here the easier it will be to trade that contract, and get value for it, rather than having to take some other kind of garbage in return, or sweeten the deal with picks or something.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:28 PM   #26 (permalink)
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A tool for wanting Jose traded? I'm far from being alone there.And anyone can be traded, even Jose and his shitty contract.


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Old 01-30-2011, 12:36 PM   #27 (permalink)
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he's absolutely and completely still an albatross, and he definitely needs a special situation to hide his weaknesses. a team full of defenders like la could do this. toronto can't. if he's a backup, which i think he is, he's waaaay to expensive for a rebuilding team. he needs to go more than any other raptor. the same case could be made for Bargs but i'd rather keep him because if the way he can score. i know i'm in a minority on that one.
A team with good team defenders could make use of what ultimately are not weaknesses at all, as far as what I've seen this season. The guy has fought through screens when needed, gone under screens against guys they are hoping become shooters, been quick to getting to a spot to take a charge while providing help defense of his own, and fought to steer guys to help rather than play toro.

If I'm wrong and he truly is hopeless as any kind of defender, then he's going to hurt any team defense. That is certainly the case with Bargnani. He needs to go to a team that just doesn't care about defending.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:43 PM   #28 (permalink)
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If they add a rookie contract to take over the starting role, then it's not an outrageous amount for the position. A position that counts more than any other.

And the longer he stays here the easier it will be to trade that contract, and get value for it, rather than having to take some other kind of garbage in return, or sweeten the deal with picks or something.
True enough. It looks like we are in a stretch of young and low paid players for a little while. I have said before that if Jose were being paid a lot lower, I don't mind him being on this team. When it comes time to ante up on other guys, he can re-sign for 2.5 mil...becoming the Raptors all time assist leader. Jose Calderon. Raptor for life!
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:45 PM   #29 (permalink)
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you can run around all the screens you want, but if you don't have the lateral quicks to keep up with the offensive player you're going to get blown by, especially as the first point of defense.

i don't mean to suggest he isn't trying, but he's just not capable of being effective. on a team with 4 other quality defenders the team will help clog the lane and capture guys coming off the screens. he's not hopeless when backed up, but he is useless when he's not.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:51 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Jose is the only reason our rag tag roster is still referred as "they have no problem scoring"
Trading him only means extending tank for season or two.

Don't know about you, but I want next season to be competitive. Youth will year older and BC will have plenty opportunities to bring in good players. And veteran at PG never hurt anyone

Bargnani might have value in the league, if we could move him for a starter...
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:53 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I believe this team now more then ever needs to trade Jose, we need other players to touch the ball & learn how to dribble, the fact is that no one needs to dribble when Jose is on the floor & Andrea is just being spoon fed jump shot after jump shot...

There is only one positive that Jose provides is a solid pick & roll with AJ & ED

But there has to be more ball handling given to our young players so there play making skills can grow IMO
This is BANG ON!!!!! He is the only one dribbling around and dumping it to Bargs aka Vegetable aka Lasagna aka Chucker aka Dumb-ass aka GTFO!
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:56 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Jose is the only reason our rag tag roster is still referred as "they have no problem scoring"
Trading him only means extending tank for season or two.

Don't know about you, but I want next season to be competitive. Youth will year older and BC will have plenty opportunities to bring in good players. And veteran at PG never hurt anyone

Bargnani might have value in the league, if we could move him for a starter...
How competetive have we been the last three seasons? Where have we gone with Jose the last 5 seasons? And this "we have no problem scoring" stuff isn't nesessarily just because of him, in fact when he's been hurt this season we've scored just fine, last season we had by far our best stretch when he was hurt and our offense didn't really suffer.

And by the way, our last 11 games we're averaging right around 96ppg, so not exactly lighting the world on fire. We've had games of 72points, 87pts, 94pts, 81pts, 79pts. To be honest without Barbosa this team sucks on offense with or without Jose.

Last edited by jeffb; 01-30-2011 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:58 PM   #33 (permalink)
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So LX, since you never even mentioned the issue of the stagnant offence he runs and just throwing the ball to Andrea (or just running around for 22 seconds)

The only reason I ask is because you seem to be the prime defender of him on this thread, and I, like others, want him traded ASAP along with bargs.
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:13 PM   #34 (permalink)
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So LX, since you never even mentioned the issue of the stagnant offence he runs and just throwing the ball to Andrea (or just running around for 22 seconds)

The only reason I ask is because you seem to be the prime defender of him on this thread, and I, like others, want him traded ASAP along with bargs.
It's going to be stagnant if he's the only guy passing the ball. Your depiction of his offense seems like a gross over-generalization. This is a very green team. I believe I mentioned that. It looks to be so for some time. Why the rush to shed even more solid experienced guys? And why put a guy like that into such a lose/lose proposition where he's either turning the ball over too much, or not taking enough chances, or over-dribbling, or pretty much anything that is going to be a problem with a team like this.

This team has only started playing anything remotely like half-court sets since injuries have forced a slowing pace. He proved pretty effective at getting good shots for guys in early offense. He has shown that he's able to run the break - something he was horrible at before. And now he's doing what he can to run a patient, half-court offense where there are no real playmakers. I don't see how that's a horrible problem placed squarely on him.

Finally - I'm hardly the great Jose defender. I'm simply stating that he has clearly worked hard on his past weaknesses, expanding his abilities, while being a guy that would be that much better as a backup to a young point guard coming in. There's a real possibility that he would be exactly the kind of guy that we'd be looking for if we traded him hastily.
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:20 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Without Jose this team struggles. We can trade Jose, but only for another pass first PG. I would hate to have a ball hog like LB or JB running point.
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:23 PM   #36 (permalink)
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you can run around all the screens you want, but if you don't have the lateral quicks to keep up with the offensive player you're going to get blown by, especially as the first point of defense.

i don't mean to suggest he isn't trying, but he's just not capable of being effective. on a team with 4 other quality defenders the team will help clog the lane and capture guys coming off the screens. he's not hopeless when backed up, but he is useless when he's not.
you don't need 4 quality individual defenders to clog a lane. that was my point. You just need 4 guys to know what the fuck they are doing, and simply commit to playing any defense as a team. His lateral quicks have improved a great deal over the last few years, though clearly not when stuck with that bad hammy. Last night he made a beautiful play coming off of his own guy, moving laterally very quickly to get in front of the Minny ballhander and take a charge. That's just good defense. He took another beautiful charge on Love after Love had passed the ball off. Lookie loookie at who happens to be one of those able defenders that can clog the lane.

If there's a guy that is going to blow by him terribly easily, then yes you will need another guard to take that assignment, but he's figured out a lot in terms of where to be , and how hard he needs to fight for the right position, for that not to be the case all that often.

And again I point to him being a backup as the best scenario, where the kinds of impossible offensive threats are not going to be as much of an overall impact.
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:25 PM   #37 (permalink)
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BC wants Jose gone
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:53 PM   #38 (permalink)
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We don't know what Irving is yet, but I don't see Washington complaining about one young John Wall. Outside of injury, they could have me as backup PG and be happy.
And how is young John Wall doing?

When he's been healthy, he hasn't really had a problem scoring, but his biggest weakness has been running an offense, especially in the half court. He looks lost out there sometimes.

And of course, Washington, also brought in Hinrich for a reason in the offseason as well, to act as a steadying defensive and offensive presence on that team.
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:56 PM   #39 (permalink)
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If we got Irving I'd keep Jose at the backup. All bayless does is force feed to Andrea and go one on one.
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:56 PM   #40 (permalink)
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LX, I think you're bang on, and I don't want to repeat much of what you said here.

He hasn't struggled as much as I thought he would this season in terms of keeping his man in front of him. Is he the best defender on this team? No, I think you'd be hard pressed to make that argument.

Is he, right now, an adequate defender? Yes. I think you have a team here that's slowly developing some ok defenders and you're starting to see some players who really won't fit the mold later on.
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