NBA.com's take on the Raptors forr this season - Page 2
Old 08-20-2013, 05:02 PM   #21 (permalink)
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it's a double standard, fellas.
In order to get a good pick we need to tank hard. something like 10-72.
I don't see MU going this route. Also, if after 25-30 games we are meh, it might be too late to tank hard, so we better just play hard any try and win as much as we can.
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:07 PM   #22 (permalink)
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In order to get a good pick we need to tank hard. something like 10-72.
I don't see MU going this route. Also, if after 25-30 games we are meh, it might be too late to tank hard, so we better just play hard any try and win as much as we can.
not really. it's not top 3 or bust.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:14 PM   #23 (permalink)
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not really. it's not top 3 or bust.
True... but we also know the draft can be a crapshot
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:55 PM   #24 (permalink)
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True... but we also know the draft can be a crapshot
not for good GMs
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:05 PM   #25 (permalink)
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not for good GMs
That's a bold statement. Good GMs can still draft busts. There are scouts involved and staff involved there is no guarantee that a good GM could draft a good player and vice versa.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:14 PM   #26 (permalink)
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not for good GMs
Let's not hold back here. Drafts may be crapshoots, acknowledged. This coming 2014 draft, guaranteed not a crapshoot.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:37 AM   #27 (permalink)
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That's a bold statement. Good GMs can still draft busts. There are scouts involved and staff involved there is no guarantee that a good GM could draft a good player and vice versa.
so your reasoning is that since anybody can make mistakes, the process is a crapshot ... that's like saying driving a car is suicide, because even good drivers sometimes get killed in accidents.

luck is always a factor, but a good GM has a very good chance of drafting well.
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:17 AM   #28 (permalink)
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You guys do get that it's not a video game right? GM's can make good decisions and still have the chosen player not turn out to be what everyone hoped for. There's no guarantee that the player will enjoy competing enough, want to win enough, make other players better, and there is no way of knowing what kinds of players you will have the opportunity to surround that player with from that point on in order to make the most out of his particular abilities and that prove to be a necessary compliment rather than leave him carrying too big of a load on his own.

Building a team is building a team. There is no magical solution with built-in guarantees. A good GM reacts situationally to get better day by day while always keeping the big picture in mind. A good GM does not just start from scratch every year until the guaranteed success finally reveals itself. Nor does a good GM look at 45 wins and some playoff dates and settle in for that for as long as possible. The easy route is not where you find good GM's, albeit some luck certainly comes into play.

If we have a good GM we will get better if we win, and we will get better if we lose. So what exactly is the debate? The path taken will depend on multiple situations and how our good GM will wind his way through each one optimally for short-term and long-term benefits. But it would be better if he could just pretend he was playing a video game? I don't think so.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:10 PM   #29 (permalink)
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you may look at it as semantics, but it's a very important distinction
saying the lottery is a crapshoot implies it's more or less a random process where any outcome is equally possible. That is wrong in every possible way, and history shows that good GMs consistently draft good players and it's a logical step to assume that a good GM has a VERY GOOD shot of drafting a very good player with a high pick.

you say:
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A good GM does not just start from scratch every year until the guaranteed success finally reveals itself
as if anybody actually said that.
A good GM faced with a rebuilding process has a number of broad blueprints to choose with. I've outlined the three most common ones in another post, and two those 3 were also mentioned by MU and TL in their early interviews. Either blueprint can work and, in theory, you could estimate the chances by looking at all rebuilding jobs in the last 20 years.

A large group (majority?) of fans believe that, given our current roster and cap space situation, a full rebuild started by one or two years of tanking is the best approach.

All the back and forth on the subject really boils down to this critical question:

Given the level of talent, cap space limitations and strength of upcoming draft, is there a plan that has BETTER ODDS than tanking?
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:14 PM   #30 (permalink)
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also, when you say:

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A good GM reacts situationally to get better day by day while always keeping the big picture in mind
you discount the fact that, in essence, we are talking about the BIG PICTURE here. Tanking or not tanking is not a "situational" decision, it's the ultimate big picture decision. Nobody cares (right now) about the day to day stuff, we just want to choose a blueprint.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:22 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I hear a train a comin', it's rolling round the bend -

Oh wait...just the constant whine of Thomas the Tank engineers. Sounds much like a bunch of three-year-olds with a Thomas the Tank Engine that won't stay on the tracks. So much constant miserable noise.

Let's say hypothetically we get a top 5 pick. Does the whining stop? Doubtful. Oooooooooh we could have had Wiggins. Awwwwwww. Our guy sucks and will want too much money or leave. Bawwwwwwww.

Winning some games beats being stuck in Folsom Prison. Cheer the fuck up.

Fucking eh.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:23 PM   #32 (permalink)
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also, when you say:



you discount the fact that, in essence, we are talking about the BIG PICTURE here. Tanking or not tanking is not a "situational" decision, it's the ultimate big picture decision. Nobody cares (right now) about the day to day stuff, we just want to choose a blueprint.
I don't discount anything. I'm saying the big picture AND the current situational stuff need to be tended to. I'm saying it's too easy to suggest that the broad blueprints you outlined can be chosen and the job is half done. And i wouldn't call those blueprints as much as approaches for following a blueprint. The blueprint I want to see followed is the one regarding what kind of team they look to put on the floor now, what role they expect each player to fill, what players might be upgradable, what players are deadwood, what players they would like to acquire if possible, and what means they can use for acquiring those players in the future, including the tank, if that becomes necessary.

Masai has said himself that he will take multiple approaches over time to get the team where he wants it to be. As different situations play out over time, he will take the best approach accordingly. The blueprint needs to stay the same. That's how blueprints work. The approach will constantly change, because we're not dealing with bricks and mortar.

Last edited by LX; 08-21-2013 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:49 PM   #33 (permalink)
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so your reasoning is that since anybody can make mistakes, the process is a crapshot ... that's like saying driving a car is suicide, because even good drivers sometimes get killed in accidents.

luck is always a factor, but a good GM has a very good chance of drafting well.
All I am saying is that even if you have a top 5 GM it still doesn't mean your draft pick will become a success story. Beasley (MIA), Hasheem Thabeet (MEM) are just a couple of examples that come in mind.

Last edited by Tommy C; 08-21-2013 at 09:24 PM.
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