National Post: Welcome to Toronto, the City of Losers - Page 3
Old 10-15-2009, 05:41 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I came from Atlantic Canada and I'm telling you that summers are no different out there than in Alberta except there is more thunder storms in Alberta. Winter can get really cold in Alberta but the Chinook winds warm it up from time to time. I've felt -45 once last year...That was not nice but it was in Northern Alberta, not to the south where Calgary is. Antonio Davis would die between the walk from the plane to the terminal in -45 based on what he's said about Canada in the past. LOL
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Old 10-15-2009, 05:46 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Well maybe it is the case, though I still love my city. I was a passionate 7 year old during the inaugural season and I still share the same passion for the Raptors today. The Blue Jays did win the World Series back to back in the early 90s, that should count for something. Hopefully the curse will be broken sooner than later and preferably by the Raptors.
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Old 10-15-2009, 05:55 PM   #43 (permalink)
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If you look at the recorded average temperatures in Calgary and Toronto, you see that Calgary has a lower yearly average low temperature (-2.4 degrees C compared to 5.6 degrees C for Toronto). If you break it down by season, you see in the summer that, again, Calgary has an average low that is lower than Toronto's. The average high's are also higher in Toronto in both instances.
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:07 PM   #44 (permalink)
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My cousin was born and raised in Montreal and his job took him to Calgary. He claims it is a vast cultural wasteland.
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:09 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Well, going to Calgary from Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver, I could see that. From any other place in Canada, I think you'd appreciate the culture there.
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:10 PM   #46 (permalink)
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As a former westerner, allow me to correct you slightly. The hate is not for Toronto. If anything there is indifference as far as this place goes. What they hate is how they get force fed the idea of Toronto's importance at every turn for every second of every day, how Toronto and Montreal get favored treatment from any sitting government, and how obsessed the people they meet from Toronto are with everything Toronto.

And having travelled the whole country fairly extensively, I feel pretty confident in saying that the complaining and self-pity is exclusively a Toronto thing.

Bob McCowan was going on about the same thing the other day. He went on a rant over how Toronto fans will wail away over how they want the apple instead of the orange, and then when they get the orange they rise up and scream - "what the hell was wrong with the apple". He also finds it to be a unique feature here.
i lived in vancouver for 5 years and am married to a woman from a small town in northern bc. her family now resides in the vancouver area and she has relatives throughout bc. i spend a portion of every summer on the west coast and visit vancouver at least every other xmas, so i get quite a bit of interaction with bc'ers. one thing i am absolutely sure of is that there is definitely a hate for toronto.

what you quite rightly describe, lx, is western alienation. it goes back a long ways, but definitely has some of its roots in the national energy program and in the media concentration that has existed and still exists in toronto. it also has deep roots in ottawa politics and the way it concentrates around ontario and quebec. this is the most prevalent kind of angst against toronto and the 'east' in general, but by no means the only one.

the typical reaction i get from people when i tell them that my wife an i moved back to toronto is an incredulous "toronto! why would you want to live there?" they hate it. they think it is big, socially cold, filled with pollution and traffic, and generally one of the worst places in canada to live. this is not universal amongst westerners in canada by any stretch, but it is certainly there. put aside the fact that vancouver probably has worse pollution and traffic than toronto, and that the streets there are really no more friendly than they are here, and what you get is an uppity arrogance about how beautiful they see their province to be. and in the end, when mixed with the traditional western alienation vibe, what you get is a condescending hate for toronto. a "we're better than you" attitude that prevails, especially amongst transplanted easterners.

now i love vancouver, and i have great respect for the people there, but i can say with complete honesty that no where else in the world - and i have travelled quite extensively - have i been made to feel that my home city is an abomination more than when in vancouver and northern bc. it has been remarkable. they really do hate this city.
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:36 PM   #47 (permalink)
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i lived in vancouver for 5 years and am married to a woman from a small town in northern bc. her family now resides in the vancouver area and she has relatives throughout bc. i spend a portion of every summer on the west coast and visit vancouver at least every other xmas, so i get quite a bit of interaction with bc'ers. one thing i am absolutely sure of is that there is definitely a hate for toronto.

what you quite rightly describe, lx, is western alienation. it goes back a long ways, but definitely has some of its roots in the national energy program and in the media concentration that has existed and still exists in toronto. it also has deep roots in ottawa politics and the way it concentrates around ontario and quebec. this is the most prevalent kind of angst against toronto and the 'east' in general, but by no means the only one.

the typical reaction i get from people when i tell them that my wife an i moved back to toronto is an incredulous "toronto! why would you want to live there?" they hate it. they think it is big, socially cold, filled with pollution and traffic, and generally one of the worst places in canada to live. this is not universal amongst westerners in canada by any stretch, but it is certainly there. put aside the fact that vancouver probably has worse pollution and traffic than toronto, and that the streets there are really no more friendly than they are here, and what you get is an uppity arrogance about how beautiful they see their province to be. and in the end, when mixed with the traditional western alienation vibe, what you get is a condescending hate for toronto. a "we're better than you" attitude that prevails, especially amongst transplanted easterners.

now i love vancouver, and i have great respect for the people there, but i can say with complete honesty that no where else in the world - and i have travelled quite extensively - have i been made to feel that my home city is an abomination more than when in vancouver and northern bc. it has been remarkable. they really do hate this city.
I've been made to feel that way as a Calgarian in Vancouver. There is a definite insularity in various places in Alberta and BC. Albertans will not accept you as a fellow Albertan if you've only lived there for a few years and come from Ontario. But here's the thing - the people out there do think much differently than people out here do, and much of the disconnect, I think, comes from the media. Very small things that happen in Toronto get full national news coverage, and everyday there are all the complaints and general unhappiness of Toronto on display. My family comes out here and they hunt for people in the throngs downtown that exhibit the slightest smile and it is a good challenge for them. Whereas people in Calgary are stupidly outgoing and and aggressively friendly. It's not hard to see where they get the feeling that Toronto is a bit sterile. And meanwhile you get people, like Jeff's friend, that come out there, and complain while spewing endlessly about how much they miss Toronto.

Vancouver, and BC in general is further cut off geographically. It is just hard to feel connected to people in Toronto, where their national identity tends to get defined for them. Both in BC and Alberta, there is a lot of active identifying with the natural surroundings which just doesn't get matched in Ontario, where you get to struggle with traffic for half a weekend to get to some lake, instead of just zipping an hour or half-hour from your home for a quick hike or whatever kind of getaway you like. Now that's changing, and there is getting to be the same big city problems out there that happen anywhere, but it seems like there's a blind eye to the problems to this point. So the West just identifies with such different things.

So my point is that it's my experience that people out there do not have any identifiable hatred of the city as it is, but rather more of what the city represents symbolically as they've come to know it, and in which they feel very cut-off from.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:39 PM   #48 (permalink)
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50 year mark for the leafs is coming boys, how come no one talks about that?
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:44 PM   #49 (permalink)
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this is not universal amongst westerners in canada by any stretch
Thank you for mentioning this. I grew up in Victoria and have nothing against the city of Toronto or Easterners, having visited it only once. I can't speak for others here but I even have the name in my alias
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:59 PM   #50 (permalink)
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If you look at the recorded average temperatures in Calgary and Toronto, you see that Calgary has a lower yearly average low temperature (-2.4 degrees C compared to 5.6 degrees C for Toronto). If you break it down by season, you see in the summer that, again, Calgary has an average low that is lower than Toronto's. The average high's are also higher in Toronto in both instances.
That's great and all but no one was arguing whether Calgary was warmer than Toronto. We were discussing if it was cold enough to carry around a jacket in the summer in Calgary and I know that's not the case. I have also never seen snow during the summer in Calgary. Calgary gets very nice weather in the summer. This is my point.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:49 AM   #51 (permalink)
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What they hate is how they get force fed the idea of Toronto's importance at every turn for every second of every day, how Toronto and Montreal get favored treatment from any sitting government....
ok, NO NO NO NO!
As a student that deals heavily in Urban Affairs that is completely false LX.
Toronto gets snubbed constantly by the federal government. Our infrastructure is FUCKED and both the federal and provincial governments have had numerous chances to fix it and have ended up putting the $$ elsewhere.

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I mean if anything people outside of Toronto should be thanking them; whose tax dollars do they think are supporting their infrastructure, certainly not their own. If Toronto was suddenly destroyed or vanished the rest of the province would get a very big wake-up call financially.
thank you, im glad someone else realized that Canada NEEDS its urban centers, without them the rural areas of Canada would never survive, esp. Quebec and the Maritimes provinces.

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My cousin was born and raised in Montreal and his job took him to Calgary. He claims it is a vast cultural wasteland.
i've heard that too. but with immigration that will slowly change, especially with this fucked up boom that Alberta is experiencing thanks to the oil sands, but that will backfire eventually, on the same lines of Buffalo and Detroit...

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it also has deep roots in ottawa politics and the way it concentrates around ontario and quebec. this is the most prevalent kind of angst against toronto and the 'east' in general, but by no means the only one.

the typical reaction i get from people when i tell them that my wife an i moved back to toronto is an incredulous "toronto! why would you want to live there?" they hate it. they think it is big, socially cold, filled with pollution and traffic, and generally one of the worst places in canada to live. this is not universal amongst westerners in canada by any stretch, but it is certainly there. put aside the fact that vancouver probably has worse pollution and traffic than toronto, and that the streets there are really no more friendly than they are here, and what you get is an uppity arrogance about how beautiful they see their province to be. and in the end, when mixed with the traditional western alienation vibe, what you get is a condescending hate for toronto. a "we're better than you" attitude that prevails, especially amongst transplanted easterners.

now i love vancouver, and i have great respect for the people there, but i can say with complete honesty that no where else in the world - and i have travelled quite extensively - have i been made to feel that my home city is an abomination more than when in vancouver and northern bc. it has been remarkable. they really do hate this city.
Yes 'Trane is right.
I lived in Vancouver for 4 months when i was younger and i must say it opened my eyes as to how people on the west coast view Toronto. However i have to say that the reason for Ottawa politics being centered around Ontario and Quebec is because up until 20 (or so) years ago thats where all the money was, well big money anyway. its only recently that Calgary and Vancouver have seen enormous booms in investment.

I was born and raised in Toronto, and im perfectly happy with being the New York of Canada, but people need to understand that Canada's economy desperately needs Toronto.
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Old 10-16-2009, 01:24 AM   #52 (permalink)
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In 1950 maybe. As of this moment, not even close. Where do you get your info from?
Calgary and Edmonton still have smaller metro populations than Salt Lake City.
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Old 10-16-2009, 09:32 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Pine St. in Thorold is one of the most boring places on earth.
Not at 4am.
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:17 AM   #54 (permalink)
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i've heard that too. but with immigration that will slowly change, especially with this fucked up boom that Alberta is experiencing thanks to the oil sands, but that will backfire eventually, on the same lines of Buffalo and Detroit...
If you're saying that Alberta is going to go through a job shortage crisis and home mortgage crisis then you don't know what you're talking about. Alberta is one of the top bread earners in Canada and it helps provinces like Ontario, who need equalization payments, keep going. Alberta has vast oil reserves and last time I checked the price of oil is going up again.

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Old 10-16-2009, 01:19 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Oh Boy.

I am pondering putting my useless politics education into action here.

Lets just say this, there is a feeling of alienation in all parts of canada, mostly because politics in Ottawa focus on Toronto and Montreal. Truth is, the west is dead without crude oil reserves, and with a growing amount of UN pressure on canada to clean up its G8 WORST policies on emissions, things arent as rosey outhtere as you mihgt think moving forward in the next 50 years.

Like it or not, our population density, technologies and manufacturing are by far more concentrated in Ontario and Quebec, hence the attention. I grow wearly listening to the whinings of Westerners and such.

Our federal governments willingness to forget about Ontario's manufacturing industry so it could set Canada back 50 years as a nation and return to allowing natural resource raping to be our main source of stability makes me sick. We are becomming a service nation who are relying on a non-renewable source of energy to stay afloat. Some of you kids dont care about this stuff, but wait till you have children.

That said, Tornonto is a city of losers, the article is about sports.
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Old 10-16-2009, 02:32 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I'm not having a pissing contest with you here about "attention" because I don't care about that to begin with. Western Canada is the main bread winner in Canada. Its a fact. The oil sands of Alberta, at current production, have enough reserves to last 100 years. Then you have Saskatchewan who now know they have more oil sands reserves than Alberta, but are developing it slowly and have over 90% of the world's potash supply. I'm not about to sit here and argue about who has more attention, its obviously Ontario and Quebec. That's the most obvious statement of the decade. That wasn't where I was heading with it. Somebody made a completely ignorant statement, comparing Alberta to Michigan, one of the core crisis centers in America today where unemployment is soaring, entire neighborhoods are being foreclosed, are about to be hit with a second wave of foreclosures when when interests rates are raised again and there are rumblings of a commercial mortgage crisis on the horizon. That is not Alberta. Michigan and Ontario have more parallels than Alberta and Michigan. Alberta will be sustained for a century, if no legit alternative is found, thanks to oil. Alberta will continue to be a main bread earner and Ontario will continue to be a "have not province", as Steven Harper likes to call those province who can't afford to pay their bills without out help from the feds. Meanwhile, Manitoba and Newfoundland are leap frogging Ontario with their own steady growth due to an abundance of natural resources. Ontario can have the attention, that's not my interest. Give me a higher paying jobs with far more opportunities to rise the ranks, give me lower taxes, give me constant investment in infrastructure, and give my future kids the best school system in the country.

And for the record, I like Ontario. What I don't like is when people from Ontario stick their noses up at other provinces thinking their shit don't stick. Well FYI, I've been all over Ontario and I've seen what's outside the major centers. Its very poor. Far poorer than anything you'd ever seen in a province like Newfoundland which just happens to be a province that the Ontario media has so ignorantly used as a punching bag with every opportunity.

And I'm not a Westerner but I do live in Western Canada.

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Lets just say this, there is a feeling of alienation in all parts of canada, mostly because politics in Ottawa focus on Toronto and Montreal. Truth is, the west is dead without crude oil reserves, and with a growing amount of UN pressure on canada to clean up its G8 WORST policies on emissions, things arent as rosey outhtere as you mihgt think moving forward in the next 50 years.

If you think anyone is going to slow down the oil sands because of a political ballet of egos that is taking place then you're kidding yourself. The price of oil is rising again and many major projects that were placed on hold due to the economic climate change of a couple years ago are starting back up. Canada as a country and Alberta as a province are not going to slow down production when both are running deficits right now. Even when this stables off a little more production will not be reduced. There is too much money to be made and that money is driving the Canadian economy.

The stunts that Greenpeace have been pulling in the oil sands area is sensationalism built on a foundation of misinformation. If I were a betting man I would place my money on Syncrude winning their $1.5M law suit against Greenpeace and that's going to hurt far more than the couple electric shovels that may have stopped operations for a couple days. I'm still on the fence about how much effect carbon emissions is having on the climate. All the other planets are heating up too and something tells me that can't be blamed on herds of cattle and power plants.

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Old 10-16-2009, 02:55 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Dude.

Relax.

I personally don't give a shit.

But if you think returning to a dependancy is prudent, then great. I don't.

For our lifetime, it isn't important anyhow.
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Old 10-16-2009, 03:17 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Everybody deserves a rant every now and then and that time seemed right.

Dependency on oil is necessary when there is a strong dependency already on the U.S.
Wall street fat cats are robbing the general public blind in the U.S. and pulling Canada along with them. They have a fiat currency that's about to crumble. Bleak times there means bleak times, to some degree, here. Oil production and energy production is needed to sustain the country. The fact that Canada is only second to Saudi Arabia in oil reserves should be comforting to all.

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Old 10-16-2009, 03:42 PM   #59 (permalink)
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ok, NO NO NO NO!
As a student that deals heavily in Urban Affairs that is completely false LX.
Toronto gets snubbed constantly by the federal government. Our infrastructure is FUCKED and both the federal and provincial governments have had numerous chances to fix it and have ended up putting the $$ elsewhere.
That has been the case in the last decade or so, but historically it is absolutely not the case. Infrastructure is a moot point anyway, because nobody has gotten infrastructure support. Where centres like Toronto and Montreal benefit, is with jobs thanks to government deals.

And where the argument about oil goes - it's absolutely sad that Alberta has failed to diversify its economy, but instead has opted to give money back to taxpayers in wasteful little cheques. The long term planning has not been there, and now they either must bend over and take it up the arse from companies that want to suck up their resources while leaving a hellish mess behind, or suffer from losing the revenue flow they have used so foolishly as short term injections of "growth".
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Old 10-16-2009, 03:50 PM   #60 (permalink)
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That has been the case in the last decade or so, but historically it is absolutely not the case.
What relevance does decades ago have on the present? Times change. History isn't going to keep your roads and buildings in good condition. Correct if I'm wrong because maybe my eyes were playing tricks on me as I was driving to visit some friends in Oakville over the summer, but isn't the Toronto area selling off portions of highway to private groups? Private highways...Ugh... I think that's the biggest load of crap I've ever seen. A total government cop out. Somebody should be grilling your leaders. I would be interested in who the investors are. The same sort of thing is happening down in Texas on a larger scale and the main investor is the royal family of Spain...God bless Amer-Spain?


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Where centres like Toronto and Montreal benefit, is with jobs thanks to government deals.
Ontario and Quebec aren't the only areas benefiting from government jobs, its just that in other areas industry is creating so many jobs that it dwarfs anything else...Jobs that, in some cases, they cannot keep filled because there is so much to choose from.

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