Mark Jackson said something interesting
Old 12-19-2009, 12:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
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I was watching the Sacramento game the other night and Jackson said this

"It's not about X's and O's, timeouts or rotations. The only way I judge how good a coach is by how hard his team comes to play every night."

He was referring to Westphal and the kings in this statement meaning that they are busting their asses for their coach every night and with lack of talent getting wins. I guess the same can be said for Houston and Milwaukee.

That got me thinking of course about Triano. Based on that he has failed. I think Jay does not have the heft, rep or personality to motivate/intimidate NBA players like they need to be at times.

I have always been in the corner that it's our players that are lazy, finesse type and soft. However rethinking it based on this criteria.... Jay great guy but I think better assistant NBA coach than head coach.
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I was watching the Sacramento game the other night and Jackson said this

"It's not about X's and O's, timeouts or rotations. The only way I judge how good a coach is by how hard his team comes to play every night."

He was referring to Westphal and the kings in this statement meaning that they are busting their asses for their coach every night and with lack of talent getting wins. I guess the same can be said for Houston and Milwaukee.

That got me thinking of course about Triano. Based on that he has failed. I think Jay does not have the heft, rep or personality to motivate/intimidate NBA players like they need to be at times.

I have always been in the corner that it's our players that are lazy, finesse type and soft. However rethinking it based on this criteria.... Jay great guy but I think better assistant NBA coach than head coach.
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:35 PM   #3 (permalink)
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your probably right about jay, he's too soft to be a head coach, even the ref's shit on him


However the entire reason jay triano is the head coach is because colangelo has him on a leash. i truely believe that colangelo has big influence and if he wants somebody playing more, it happens
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
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However the entire reason jay triano is the head coach is because colangelo has him on a leash. i truely believe that colangelo has big influence and if he wants somebody playing more, it happens
Jay's a puppet, I think everyone knew as much going in.
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:41 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Traino is pretty hard to take seriously, He is basically Ned Flanders with out hair. Has anyone seen the "Kobe; goin to work" doc.by spike lee. In it there are few glimpses of Phil's game preparation and Half time summaries, the detail and depth of which are pretty interesting. For some reason I don't think the raps are getting this attention to detail.
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:46 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Traino is pretty hard to take seriously, He is basically Ned Flanders with out hair. Has anyone seen the "Kobe; goin to work" doc.by spike lee. In it there are few glimpses of Phil's game preparation and Half time summaries, the detail and depth of which are pretty interesting. For some reason I don't think the raps are getting this attention to detail.
We diddelly-doddelly-didn't hit our shots.
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:48 PM   #7 (permalink)
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We diddelly-doddelly-didn't hit our shots.


Personally i think you guys are wrong about the puppet stuff. I think you want him to be one so that you can use that as an excuse for his timidness... but i don't think he's any more a puppet than any other head coach answering to his GM.
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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He ain't a puppet. He simply can't coach.

Say whatever you want about Sam Mitchell, the team never looked this bad under him. Even with far WORSE roster then this. Tirano as an epic failure and Colangelo's mistake of the career.
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:00 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Flip Saunders came to the Wizards with a philosophy that he wasn't going force the team to learn his extensive playbook or call plays from the sideline. Saunders felt it wouldn't work with the players on the team, but he says he is beginning to rethink the freedom he gives his players.

"I think I'm going to have to rein it in," Saunders told The Washington Times Friday morning. "In all my years of coaching, and this is CBA and 15 seasons in the NBA, I have never had to yell at a player for taking bad shots in a game, - until this year. "I think there's no question, it's a Catch-22. You try to give them their freedom so they find their confidence. But then when you have to keep talking to them about what's a good shot and what's a bad shot, you get to the point where you say, 'To hell with the confidence. You have to understand.'"
with some players, a civilized approach doesn't work


We're talking about individuals who make in a year more than most of you make in a lifetime, and all they're being asked is to run as fast as they can for 30 minutes every other day for 6 months a year. And when they don't, you blame the coach for that ...
There is NO EXCUSE not to give 100%. That goes for everybody on any nba roster, from darko milicic to lebron james. If any regular joe would do their job like some nba players do theirs, and the boss would see it, they would be fired on the spot.

That being said, it would be foolish not to recognize that MOST nba players are not playing as hard as they should, and a part of the blame should go to the coach, because he's a manager who should be able to motivate his employees, and when he doesn't, he should be held responsible. Even if ultimately it's the employee's fault ...
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by elT View Post
He ain't a puppet. He simply can't coach.

Say whatever you want about Sam Mitchell, the team never looked this bad under him. Even with far WORSE roster then this. Tirano as an epic failure and Colangelo's mistake of the career.
i don't know elT.

The team looked horrible under Mitchell on many, many nights. Not so bad defensively, but plenty bad.

Triano may not be good, but that doesn't change the fact that Sam wasn't good either.
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:05 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by elT View Post
He ain't a puppet. He simply can't coach.

Say whatever you want about Sam Mitchell, the team never looked this bad under him. Even with far WORSE roster then this. Tirano as an epic failure and Colangelo's mistake of the career.
yeah, we looked a lot better when we 1-15 in '06 ...
or when we lost by 40 points to denver
or by 81 to the lakers - that night we played really hard

whatever triano is, that has nothing to do with mitchell, who has a horrible coach from any point of view but motivational. He was the opposite of triano, and both are bad coaches who got their chance with the Raptors and will never coach again after that experience ...
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
with some players, a civilized approach doesn't work


We're talking about individuals who make in a year more than most of you make in a lifetime, and all they're being asked is to run as fast as they can for 30 minutes every other day for 6 months a year. And when they don't, you blame the coach for that ...
Some actors get paid that for just one project. Maybe 6 months works tops. They still rely heavily on the director for the quality of the end product though.
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:37 PM   #13 (permalink)
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i think this team is still searching for leadership. Triano can only do so much to get them ready night in and night out. Doug Smith blurb about AB starting to call out guys on defense is a good sign. 9 new players will have dramatic impact on any teams bottom line and i think that as this group grows up a bit more, they will respond. I watch them and they seem timid to not offend each other when the starters are all on the floor. the second unit doesn't have the experience to put it together nightly, but as Jay has rotated the starters through these guys, they have responded.

this is a very young "team" and cohesion is not something you can say on the first day of training camp "ok guys, you are a team" and expect there to be no inconsistencies. Jay will not be replaced anytime soon. at least not until Smitch's contract is off the books. be careful what you wish for! I think the rest of the league has a lot more respect for Jay than i read about here. he would have no problem finding a job at any level of ball.

you can coach all you like, but if you ask a guy like Phil Jackson what is the secret, he always will tell you it is having guys like Kobe and MJ to coach makes his job very easy. We don't have a guy that plays at that level night after night, Bosh is close, but he needs the rest of his team to play average for him to be successful. right now, we are not even average most nights. we have the talent, but the guys seem to ignore defense... that is a huge issue. Jay ranting and raving won't stop the ball from going into the hole! and it won't stop Scola from dropping 20+ inside on us in a game.

some thoughts about the Raptors coaching issue...
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:38 PM   #14 (permalink)
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He's not good enough. Sometimes BC is too optimistic it blinds him.
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Old 12-19-2009, 03:01 PM   #15 (permalink)
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i don't know elT.

The team looked horrible under Mitchell on many, many nights. Not so bad defensively, but plenty bad.

Triano may not be good, but that doesn't change the fact that Sam wasn't good either.

I completely disagree with that statement. Sam had his faults, but his teams shared the ball and competed a hell of alot more then this. Our defence is laughable most nights.

Got these numbers are at ESPN.com

-Combined in the last 201 games (06-07, 07-08, 08-09 seasons) Sam's teams gave up 120pts a grand total of 8 times (3 were in overtime) and that's with less talent. The margin of losses was 8pts. And our points against average was 98ppg .

-This season under Triano in just 29 games we've had 4 games where we've given up at least 120pts.Twice 118+ and our margin of points when we lose is 14pts. And our points against average is 108ppg.


I'm not saying Sam was an amazing coach or anything, but he simply got alot more from the talent that he had then Triano has, and it's not even close.

Last edited by jeffb; 12-19-2009 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 12-19-2009, 03:04 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Personally i think you guys are wrong about the puppet stuff. I think you want him to be one so that you can use that as an excuse for his timidness... but i don't think he's any more a puppet than any other head coach answering to his GM.
when smitch was fired, BC came out and said one of the main reasons was because he was not using Bargs to his full advantage, it seems to me that Bargs being a good player so BC can be redeemed is more important than us being a good team.
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Old 12-19-2009, 03:53 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I completely disagree with that statement. Sam had his faults, but his teams shared the ball and competed a hell of alot more then this. Our defence is laughable most nights.

Got these numbers are at ESPN.com

-Combined in the last 201 games (06-07, 07-08, 08-09 seasons) Sam's teams gave up 120pts a grand total of 8 times (3 were in overtime) and that's with less talent. The margin of losses was 8pts. And our points against average was 98ppg .

-This season under Triano in just 29 games we've had 4 games where we've given up at least 120pts.Twice 118+ and our margin of points when we lose is 14pts. And our points against average is 108ppg.


I'm not saying Sam was an amazing coach or anything, but he simply got alot more from the talent that he had then Triano has, and it's not even close.
Using PPG stats to determine the value of a coach is ridiculous.

If we're doing that then Kevin O'Neill was probably the best coach that we've ever had (and we obviously know otherwise).

Sam Mitchell had FOUR season to prove himself.... and he got it done in only ONE.... when we had the best perimeter defenders on the squad that wee've had in 5-6 years.

The team DIDN'T play hard under him. He said as much in his countless soundbites. We lost by 30, 40, 25.... we had one player score 81 on us.... we became the laughingstock of the NBA under his regime.

Triano may not be the right coach for this team (that'll be determined for sure by season's end) but it damn sure wasn't any better with Sam at the helm.

Revissionist history at it's finest.
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Old 12-19-2009, 04:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Using PPG stats to determine the value of a coach is ridiculous.

If we're doing that then Kevin O'Neill was probably the best coach that we've ever had (and we obviously know otherwise).

Sam Mitchell had FOUR season to prove himself.... and he got it done in only ONE.... when we had the best perimeter defenders on the squad that wee've had in 5-6 years.

The team DIDN'T play hard under him. He said as much in his countless soundbites. We lost by 30, 40, 25.... we had one player score 81 on us.... we became the laughingstock of the NBA under his regime.

Triano may not be the right coach for this team (that'll be determined for sure by season's end) but it damn sure wasn't any better with Sam at the helm.

Revissionist history at it's finest.

What a load of shit. We are now a laughing stock and the worst defensive team in the league. Sam Mitchell was a .500 coach once he got a few decent players and had less talent then we currently have. And to say that point per game against means nothing when we were respectable defensively, is rediculous. Under Jay Triano who has more talent, we're averaging 108ppg against and are 22 games under .500!!


In 2005-06 season with no talent (we lost by 25 once, by 30 once, by 40 zero times)

In 2006-07 season (we lost by 25 zero times, by 30 zero times, by 40 zero times)

In 2007-08 season (we lost by 25 twice, by 30 zero times, by 40 zero times)

In 2008-09 season( We lost by 25 zero times, by 30 once, by 40 zero times)

So, in 263 games they were blown out (using your margins) 5 times, and that's with some shittier talent especially in the 05-06 season. With marginal talent, quite respectable imo. And not once by 40 btw. Revisionist history indeed. Like i said i'm not saying he was a great coach or anything even though i liked him, but he got alot more out of less the Triano is currently getting, period.

SAM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Triano (not even close)

Last edited by jeffb; 12-19-2009 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 12-19-2009, 04:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
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well we've certainly had some unconvincing coaches
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Old 12-19-2009, 04:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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well we've certainly had some unconvincing coaches
Very true.


The biggest thing that pisses me off is that we've only had one experienced Head Coach in the history of this franchise and that was 7 years ago.

Pathetic.
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